 Survival is all about mental toughness. It's probably 80% of mental exercise and only 20% of physical exercise. We're all around the world, the arctic, the desert, the jungle, the sea. It's always the same protection, location, acquisition, navigation. There are many materials we can use to statue shelter. Grasses, brushes, even mud. Clearing areas to land helicopters, cutting trees all the time. I've put a pebble in the centre of my plastic sheet. I've tidied it around to form an anchor point and I've suspended it from a convenient branch. And they passed a port around and all the other drinks, you know what I mean? It was compulsory. Lofty, how are you, brother? Yeah, Jeremy and Chris, yeah. Oh, Lofty, I'm just massively honoured again that you've come back on the show. We had a chat the other day. Friends, we'll put a link below for my first chat with Lofty. We did the other day. We chatted all about survival, really. And it's been, in all the time we've been podcasting, which is about four years now, we've never had so many people ask, Chris, could you please get this guest back on the show? So, friends, John Lofty Wiseman, former SAS trooper, later went on to become an icon of all of our childhoods because he wrote the SAS Survival Handbook and did a whole host of TV shows, series, etc., etc. That really helped us kids, you know, get out there in the nature, get a knife, learn a few skills, pretend we know what we're doing. We've probably set fire to a few things that we shouldn't have done, but, you know, hey-ho. And as I say, John, you know, never had such great, great feedback on a podcast. It's so kind you've come back on. And I think the public, what I call our wonderful friends out there, would like to know more about your time in the SAS. And you were, and I'm just going to quote off Wikipedia here, your commanding officer said, Lofty is a legend in this regiment. I thought you'd call me a legend to hear the truth, Chris. I was a legend in my own nothing break, yeah. Hey, mate, I'll tell everyone, we're born legends and we die legends. It's in that middle bit. You've got to realize you're a legend, don't you? You know, we get one life. It's a beautiful life. There's so much out there to enjoy. I say this a lot, and I mean, no disrespect to our young people, but if you're sat inside, sat in the dark, playing Xbox, you know, playing. That's great for a boring, you know, half hour or whatever. But what you don't want to do is get to the ripe young age of Lofty and look back at your life and think, ah, do you know what? Like I actually just sat in a dark room, play, you know, none of my dreams come true. So again, I'm talking too much, Lofty. I am aware of that. I'm just absolutely over the bloody moon. You know, it is just such an honor to have a childhood hero and you've been kind enough to come on the show twice. So in no particular order, how are you, sir, anyway? Yeah, champion, champion. Good. Still smashing it? Still setting the pills. Yeah. Do what I'm told. Still pulling the birds? I couldn't pull a ligament at a moment, mate. First question, mate, just off the top of my head. Did you ever, you know, a lot of us ex-forces have had problems with the old, you know, substances and alcohol and reintegrate into society? And I've written, you know, books about my, books about my struggles, hopefully to inspire and help other service personnel. I didn't tell you this, John. I've actually been nominated for Veteran of the Year. Good boy. Lovely. Yes, under the category of inspiration at the English Veterans Award. So I don't care about me, mate. What I care about is if anything I can say or do can help someone who might be struggling, then that's all I want. You know, I don't need any awards for it. But did you struggle with a booze at all? I mean, old Paddy Mayne, he was like big on the old whiskey and stuff, wasn't he? Yeah. We used to drink every opportunity, really, Chris, you know. We went four months with nothing. And when we come out, we had to give it a drop. And we had saved up maybe four months' money. And in two weeks' time, we was back in the sticks again, and no way was going to leave any money behind. So we spent it on, well, 99% on wine, women and song. And like I say, we wasted the flashlight. But finally about, oh, 30, 30 or a year ago, I gave up drinking for health reasons. The wife was going to kill me, basically, Chris, so no more drinks. Yeah, there's a lesson for all of us there, mate. And now, you know, it's great when you're young, but yeah, there's a time I could live. I'd better live in without it, you know. But at the time as a kid, well, it was your duty in the army to drink you had to. You had to attend parades and parties and they passed a port around and all the other drinks, you know what I mean? It was compulsory. I was forced to drink, Chris, you know. And I didn't take much encouragement, you know, but as you get older, like I say, taking pills and that, they didn't mix. And I'd better live without it, you know. I like me driving, I would hate to lose my license, you know. And yeah, so I can remember what I'm doing now most of the time. And I'm responsible for the actions. Yeah, I'll find the old drinking. It ruins your chances in F1. Yeah, yeah, too right. Lofty, what can you tell us about Merbat? Is it the Battle of Merbat? I've had to be doing my research because some of our friends out there said, Chris, could you please ask Lofty about the Battle of Merbat? And I'm gathering this was during the Dofar Rebellion in Oman. I'm just reading off the screen here. Communist guerrillas from South Yemen. This is basically, we just had the 50th anniversary of Merbat. And so 50 years ago, in Oman, Dofar, the southern Oman, the lads were deployed in a place called Merbat. It's on the coast from our base when we was in Salala. And we had guys on the ground there with a gun crew and a 25 pounder gun. We had already, we'd just done four months. We've ready to come home. We had about three days to run. That was B Squadron and G Squadron come on the ground to relieve us. And Merbat was attacked by 400. Adu was the enemy, you know, and they got together and they reckoned it was about 400. They attacked Merbat early morning. We was getting ready to, well, I was obviously asking them, getting the ammunition ready for G Squadron go on the range to zero in their GPMGs. And we got the message that Merbat was under attack. The areef was down. The areef is an annual wind and low mist comes in and this aircraft can't fly on that. But anyway, the jets did, they sent a helicopter down first and then the jets tried to fly but because of the low ceiling, it was ineffective initially. But by this time, we got the G Squadron ready to go on the ground. Took them down to the airport. They blowed up my choppers and went in to relieve Merbat, which was under attack by these 400 Adu, you know, firing all small arms, machine guns and the old propelled rockets. And so was Merbat like an outpost then? Was it a fort? A coastal town with a fort and a bat house where the lads lived. About eight guys in all, if my mind serves us right. And like I said, they was ready to come home. And they got attacked early morning. The two Fijians, Lubba Lubba, heroic, fired the gun, single handed, initially got wounded. His mate took a easy Fijian. He run across open ground under intense fire to help Lubba. He got wounded and the battle went from there and Lubba eventually got killed. And Tak was seriously wounded. And the jets come in, they saved the day. The Adu hated the jets, but they really flew low as they could, bearing in mind the reef was way down, you know, and they saved the day really. And from the bat house, we had guys on the roof with a 50 cal Browning. We had another guy firing a mortar single handed open with open sights like the enemy was that close, you know. So the lads battled on and it is the biggest battle the regiments ever faced really. So under intense overwhelming odds, the lads prevailed like, you know, held them off and we won the day. So it was a magnificent affair really. And lofty, the SES seem to have been denied a few victory crosses over the years from my limited sort of, you know, understanding of things. I'm very passionate about reading up on military history. I just find it so fascinating. And wasn't it Sergeant Laba Laba was mentioned in dispatches, but I think the lads thought he should have had the victory across. Yeah, the way the army was at the time, like with their medals, you know, I've got a VC or you've got a MID, you know, it was one of those and Laba like, he's now been, they've built a statue for him in his home in Fiji. And they were awarded the equivalent in Fiji of the Victoria Cross, you know. And so yeah, the guy on the ground again was a guy called Keely. He's a captain. He got, I think, a DSO from it. And another lad like, was the sergeant there like, he got a MM, military medal. But Laba like, he could either have got the VC or the nearest thing because he died was mentioned in dispatches, which was not reflective of the action that they fought. Because many said Paddy Main should have got a VC, but... Many times over. I mean, he got so many DSOs, but never VC and pure political, you know, I didn't know the guys, you know, but listen to everyone. They agreed he was the bravest thing on two legs, like, you know what I mean? But politically, and because he was always fighting, drinking, whatever, he won't, he won't sort of the eye right his cup of tea. And so he suffered for that. Like, but yeah, but the lads are move out. I mean, they really, they earn their money that day. And also something about like a VC has to be witnessed by an independent part in a lot of the sort of acts of heroism that Paddy Main did were, were things that, you know, he was on his own or he might have had, you know, one oppo with him. I think you've got to have a senior rank or something, you know, but he's around, you know, when you want one. And like I say, in my experience, officers got decorated for doing their job, which is getting mugs like us doing the work. And that's how it reflects, like, you know, and there's been so many acts of heroism, you know, that goes unnoticed. And it's a soldier's job, you know, and it's lovely to add decorations. But again, sometimes it's, it's injustice, you know, you know, so. And so Lofty, you, you were actually there. I wasn't in Merbet. I was, I was at the coast base in Salala, which was about 20 miles away, you know. And we got the reinforcements going. You know, we got G Squadron kitted up, got them ferried down to the airport. And my boss, Duke Perry, who's the hero of Merbet in my eyes, he was my boss, the major of B Squadron. I took him down to the airport and he stayed by the control tower. And he got all the information. The only communications we had with Merbet was through SOAF, the Air Force, you know, with the choppers going down in the jets. They relayed back to us. And the Duke, as we called Perry, the major Perry, you know, the Duke stayed there and he organized everything, you know, where D Squadron, where G Squadron were going to be deployed, what their tactics were on that. And when they got ferried in, like, he was the man on the ground who organized all the relief of Merbet. And to me, he should have got the decorations. Like he was cool under fire, you know, brilliant, like, and he organized the relief of Merbet. And Mike Keely, who was a captain, have I got this right, Lotte? He died in a breath of beacons. It did indeed. I was running selection when he was on, when he'd come back to the squadron to take over D Squadron. And it was his choice that he wanted to do parts of selection again. So he volunteered to come. He didn't have to do it. He'd come back and he said he would like to do endurance march, just so when he went back to the squadron, people wouldn't say, oh, he's come through the back door, like, you know, so he actually come breakfast with him in the morning, three o'clock in the morning. And we dispatched him over the hills. And as he got hypothermia and he died on broken beacons. Yeah, travesty. Yeah, he's not the first. I'm guessing he won't be the last day. It's, it's, it's, you know, it's the toughest force in the world for a reason. What about those three troopers that died? Were they, did they came from? They were reservists, weren't they? And they got, I don't know, heat stroke, was it? They were like, it was a summer course. And again, three guys, one was the experience. He's been to Afghan and, you know, so he had the experience. But you shouldn't have to tell trained soldiers, water discipline, you know, we have a system, you know, we carry water on us all the time. The water bottle on your belt is two points. And you don't, you think all the other water, what you're carrying on your back, and you don't touch that water bottle until an emergency, you know, and then when you're down to that last water bottle, you know, that's when you start rashing in your water. So up to then, and you've got to carry the water. Now they chose to drink things like Red Bull, you know, a performance enhancing drink, which in time, it dehydrates you. It's meant for a short burst in the gym to give you the energy. But what you need on selection is stamina and water or tea. I swear by tea, you know, when you end out messing out, you know, make a cup of tea, make a brew, drink it as hot as you can, and it stays in the system. So when you're sweating heavily, it seems dark, but drink water. Okay, it just comes straight down to pause again. You drink something hot and it stays in the system longer. And so you stay rehydrated longer. No, it seems dark, but this is how the body works, you know. Now them guys, like I say, they perished and there was part timers. And it wasn't on an SAS selection, it was signals. SAS selection. And so the press grew old of it, make a big song and dance of it. But like I say, you should not have to tell trained soldiers water discipline. You should prepare yourself for the worst. They know selection is not going to be a walkover, so prepare for it accordingly. But like I say, they took this Red Bull or whatever, and it's no substitute for a good old mug of tea or water. And they come unstuck. Or a helicopter. Yeah. You know, people who either dive hypothermia, which is too much cold or hypothermia, too much heat. So on one session, on one selection, we lost a guy in the winter course, hypothermia, went to the jungle. Lost a guy of hypothermia. He ever done it, you know, heat stroke. Went back on to selection and lost another guy. So it's a hard business, you know what I mean? And training, you have to say, and train hard, fight easy. It's no good sort of, if I'm on the climb average to go over a penny fan, I've got to go over someone like Matt McKinley, you know, which is a real test. And so training is hard. That's where you expect casualties. And they cannot lower the standards, Chris. You know, the moment you lower standards and anyone can join, you're lost. You're no longer special. You know, so standards are high. It is a severe test. But again, a little bit of common, if you want to do it, you do it. Preparation again. So all the time, you know, be prepared. What do we think then, John, about like, oh, we've got the raw Marines now is open to female applicants. I believe the special forces is two, because it would be, you know, it wouldn't just be one for what it would have to be across the board. Do we have any views? Yeah, I mean, if women can do it, okay. But I don't think they will, you know. And the rumor went around that we have women in the regiment. And that was the fact that now and again, some of the legends to dress up, I guess, you know, I mean, especially a great stay in Northern Ireland, two blokes in the car, suspicious. So one will put a wig on or something. You know, this had a room we got going, I believe, you know. But women are brilliant at what they do. You know what I mean? And they've got specific jobs. But Karen and Bergen, you know, and there are women, they're up to it now. I see women athletes, you know, the women rugby players in the boxes. You can't tell the difference, you know. So if they pass selection, okay. But how are they going to get deployed? I don't know. But I wish it was back in the Army, if that's the case. Lofty, did you serve at the same time as Serrano finds? Yeah, he never, he never joined the regiment. I was in the regiment when he came to the selection and he took explosive from a demo course and he blew up a film set on Swordsbury Plain. And if I had done it, I'd still be in jail, but he'd done it. And it was all just high, high, high pranks. You know what I mean? And so he never passed selection. And he went, he says, he was SAS, he was in the TA for a bit. I've been London, that's 21 SAS, but he's never regiment, you know. So I do know the guy, you know. He's not adverse to a bit of the old cold weather, is he? Well, he's been up Everest all day, he's got vertigo, you know. And, but yeah, it's a bit of a venture, right? And, but like I say, they're all under the guise and all saying they was in the regiment, he was TA regiment. So a bit different. Lofty, did you personally get into many firefights, you know, or hands-on sort of stuff during your time? Because, I mean, you ended up as a warrant officer, didn't you? So you'll obviously that's, you know, leading men, maybe not, not on the ground, so to speak. But yeah, you do your time, Chris. You know, I mean, I was the youngest troop at one time. And as you get more rank, you go through and, yeah, we have different things. And like it was on active service, like most of the time, up to you get to an age where the more rank you get, obviously you become more administrative. But then you get to all for the sabre squadron, and then you get like pushed on to going to the TA, we've got training wing posts, things like this, like, you know, so, yeah, it's, we've had our moments like, you know. Did you get a few rounds down in your time? We've, we find a, we find a few, Chris. Yeah, there is a serious end of life, isn't it really? It's not, I'm really glad. I only had a couple of chances to shoot someone. This sounds fucking awful saying it, but I'm at the grand old age now of 26. I'm really glad that I never bloody never did, because I won't, I won't want to, I think you have to be really in the right scenario, not to do something when you're young, that you have to bloody live with the rest of your life, you know? No, you're right. The enemy we were against, like initially, like the CT in Malaya and in Borneo and that, they wasn't, they was poorly armed, you know, in Aden, the tribesmen, they were poorly armed really, compared with what they got nowadays, you know, and, and so, you know, life has changed now, and when you see the battles now, what's going on? Oman was a big shake-up. The, the firefights there were horrendous, and every night, our positions used to get hammered, and initially, the, the bad guys, the elderly, they outgunned us in effect. They had a 12.7 Sparger machine gun, they out-ranged our 50 cal. They had a big, a two-square, I think they call it, like a, a big, a mortar, and it, and it out-ranged our, or the 75 recallist, that was it, that had ranged down 81 mil mortars and that, so yeah, many times we was out-ranged, so, and their ammunition at times was more up-to-date than ours was, so, because the Sultan of Oman, he bought a lot of Indian ammunition, a lot of second-hand mortar bombs, which were not really good, but the British ammunition come in, the packaging, it's the best, you know what I mean, but yeah, so it's a changing world. It's funny you should say that, because I was chatting to Mick Fellows the other day on the podcast, he was, he's absolutely incredible gentleman, he's got more letters after his name than the bloody alphabet, right, because he, I'm gonna say this right, he single-handedly won the Falklands, if it wasn't for him, defusing the bombs that had landed on the ships, we would have lost like a whole lot more, and I think he was on the Antrim, he's defusing this bomb and he's chatting to his commander, and he's like, boss, it's an English bomb, he's like, how do you know it's an English bomb? He says, well, it's got made in Sheffield written on the side, yeah, amazing. Just incredible, incredible. Losty, what are we? No, go on, go on. Yeah, we have a lot of the bombs that landed on the ships, they stopped defusing them in the end, because that was dodgy, and they just cut the side of the plates and rolled them out, rolled them overboard, you know, rather than risk defusing them. Mick told us, Mick said exactly this, you know, they made these ramps and rails, and they just chucked them over the side, and they had to have all kind of safety procedures in place, because just chucking it over the side could potentially, you know, blow the ship up. The jets that attacked, they were flying that low, that they didn't get the bomb's chance to arm themselves, you know, they've got to fall through the aircraft, and there's a retardation device that operates, and if that's too low, you know, it doesn't get chance to fuse the bomb. Until the BBC told the Argentines, yeah, that was the case, and then they changed the fuse, and yes. Press it again, yeah. Lofty, how was your feelings when all the sort of Bravo 2.0 stuff came out? Yeah, I mean, you know, I read the book, I love the book, but it's a work of fiction. Makes good reading, and yeah, there you go, he's made a living from it. So yeah, but like I say, it's all a good fiction. Yeah, I was, it had a bit of an effect on me, because Bob Consiglio, who was in a Bravo 2.0 patrol, was a fellow Marine. We used to say, yeah, we used to say it was the first Marine to join the essay. Apparently, that's not true, but that's what we... No, no, no, no, no, we're before that. But we fought that, because he actually had to leave the bootnecks to go to Civvie Street, then apply to join the Army to do selection, because it wasn't combined back then. And I remember I was on my parachute course, and I shared a room with two troopers, two friends of OMSAS troopers. Nige, and I won't say the other guy's name, because it's a nickname, and everyone will know who I'm talking about. But they said to me, Chris, do you know Bob Consiglio? And I was like, well, not like personally, but everybody in the call knows Bob, because he's like, joined the SAS. And our parachute course lofty was cancelled, like the next day, because all the hercs had to go out to the Gulf. And I got a lift back down to Plymouth with two nine-commando lads. And they dropped me off, I think it's my dad's place. And I went in, I chucked my berg into one side, put the tally on, and bloody hell, it was a coffin coming out of a church somewhere, I don't know, let's just say up north, with a union flag on it. And the newsreader says, today the people of such and such village buried the body of Trooper Bob Consiglio, the first casualty of the Gulf War. I'd just been talking about him with his mates the day before lofty, you know. Oh, tragic, tragic. Yeah. Castaway, that was a program that had quite a big impact on TV. Was it like 30 people on a remote Scottish island? That's it, yeah. And were you the advisor on that lofty? That's it. It was the millennium, like 2000. Yeah, these guys had to go on to Terence, a remote island up by Stornoway, Scotland there. And there's given lots of stuff, like, and they had to stay there for the year. I had no idea how to make some mental bread. I could do both. Might get them muddled up sometimes. So they had bashes in that, and they made polytunnels, they had to grow their, really, their animals, use local resources and survive for the year. And it was an experiment in people getting on with each other. And it's like when you select people, and you try to select them for certain things, it goes astray. You know, they spent thousands trying to get the right mix of people where I would have just got 30 people off the street. I wouldn't want to interview them because they would have to interact, and that'd be more interesting than trying to coach or to guide people to how you think they're going to behave. And to me, I couldn't get my hands around it. I couldn't get my head around it, really, who they selected in the end. But they had a doctor there who, they wouldn't have been better off with a good, a paramedic. You know, someone has seen action and everything because the doctor is good at seeing the surgery, writing signotes out on that, but you want to guide hands on who can deal with trauma. And a lot of GPs are not used to that. You know, so that was my biggest thing. And they put in a doctor on the island. Everyone be knocking on his door, saying, well, have you got this? You know what I mean? So to me, a big mistake. So, you know, I come out with my comments and the BBC and their wisdom, they chose to do what they wanted, you know? And it was a bit of a chaos to start. A lot of them refused to go on the island because the accommodation was ready. Well, they're so lucky to have accommodation. You know, there's a lot of stuff there and they could have built their own, you know? But it was a big program, big budget on that. But I've done all the training to help select the eventual, I think you're right, saying 30 people. But, you know, they had to have a butcher, someone who knew about farms, you know, farming and stuff like that. So it was a good cross-section. And they all had to get together. But the trouble is they gave them booze. And you know, as like Chris, the moment you give a people booze, confined area, you've got all the strife, all the drama you want in the world, like, you know, you can't film, yeah. Like the touch paper. There you go. Hey, I stayed on an island the other day, actually. Part of an upcoming expedition that I'm undertaking. I did a training exercise for it's three or four days on an island down in Cornwall. And I was, you know, I'm always in the survival mine frame. It's just the way my mind works. I'm thinking, could you live here? I'll tell you what I found, food-wise, was the sandfire grass that was all over the island. And that's really, really tasty sandfire. In the water, even though it was cold, you wouldn't want to stay in there more than, you know, five, five or 10 minutes. But the mussels were so big, I've never seen them so big in the UK because it was an untouched island, nobody goes there. They hadn't been picked. It was really big. Each mussel had such a big bit of meat in it. It was incredible. In one of the guys put his wetsuit on the island, and in about 20 minutes, I think he managed to collect about five or six bider crabs. And they went down well. There was bird life on the island, but of course, being conservationists, we stayed well away from it. But of course, you know, in a survival situation, that's obviously another option, eggs and birds. You know what your big problems are like, Chris? Trying to find an uninhabited island anywhere in the world, the reason islands are not inhabited is there's no water. And your big problem, I guess, even in Cornwall, we looked everywhere, honest, to do this program. And without water, you're snookered. Unless you've got vast amounts of fuel, and you can desalinate the sea, you're in trouble, and you can't depend on the rain. So did you have any water on the island? Well, we obviously took water with us, but you know, you bang on lofty. You'd have to rely on trying to catch rainwater when it came. Actually, it's Cornwall, so it comes quite a lot. But never when you need it. Yeah. But there was also comes to mind of what is it called the island with your best buddy Bear Grylls? Yeah. And it's whenever they find the water, it's pretty obvious that the film crew have built that water pit and filled it. You can actually see where they've studied the rocks and to make it look natural. Hey, credit to Bear. They do actually say now some of these scenes have been created to, you know, some of these, you know, and so I'm not being disrespectful here. No. Is it Colonel Grylls now? I think it's Colonel in the Royal Marines now, honorary Colonel. But yeah, no, you're quite right. You're quite right. I think, do you think digging, what would you do lofty? Would you find a cliff and then dig underneath it and figure like the waters maybe, you know, come, and not a cliff, but you know, a hill or whatever and dig at the bottom of it and hope to get something? Well, go above the high water mark, you know, and especially during sand dunes, you know, but go inland a bit and dig down away from the sort of the coast, the water's edge, and dig down below the water line. And you might find water there, by the time the salt water is percolated through the earth, it might be more palatable or any rainwater will be caught there. But like you say, if there's any underground water, people would inhabit the island and they could dig down for wells in there, you know what I mean? But it's got to have a natural source. And that's why islands are not inhabited, you know what I mean? So certain times of the year, like you say dependent on rain, people, you know, they go there to farm during, say, maybe the monsoon, this is in the tropics, but the rest of the year, no water, so no one lives there, you know? And around all these islands, when we've done some filming, the first film we made was in 1985, I think, we looked for an island to take sticks people on, three men, three women, and trying to find an island, it was impossible. And we finish up on Ramsey. Ramsey Island just off St Davies said in Wales, but there was a couple living on that. There's a small harbor there and they had a house established, but we had to keep that out of the shop and get the survivors on the other side of the island. But so you've got to cheat for like, and to make it interesting, if you're doing a survival sort of thing on an island, if you're on top of everything, there's no dramas because you're anticipating what's going to happen and you've got a contingency plan for that. And so everything goes smoothly and that's how you run a similar situation from good leadership forward thinking. So it's like watching paint dry if they make a series like that and there's no drama. So what the BBC, they'll always pick a troublemaker, they'll always pick maybe a pretty girl and they'll always want someone argumentative so they start mixing it. And all they want to see is failure and people falling out. Now this island we've done on Ramsey, I had to train these people in Exeter first and then take them to the island. They didn't know where they were and their mission was to get off the island and the producers wanted failure because it makes more drama and all the rest going behind people's backs. But we actually built a raft instead of going between Ramsey and the mainland which was going past a line of rocks called the bitches where the tide was racing in between all the time. It was just wacky, it stood no chance. I went the other side of the island and went out to the shipping lanes where all the ships going up to Milford Haven and we put a raft out there and it was picked up by an aircraft and we successfully got a rescue. You know, but the producer had been to the mainland for a conflap and when he came back he was all over, we'd been rescued and I'd never seen him again I think he committed suicide you know because he wanted failure. That helicopter behind me is the last helicopter which will take off and end the project that was cast away 2000. I've only been on the island of Taransey for two days but in that short period of time I've picked up the sense of excitement and drama that these remarkable people have been through. But let's say I just want peace and quiet I wouldn't have anything run smoothly I don't want dramas you can easily get them, you know what I mean? What a quiet life so that's what the survivors are all about to me you know avoiding all these dramas you know forward planning and let's say anticipation you know I'm stopping things going wrong or deteriorating before there's no going back you know So by lighting a fire you're supplementing calories as soon as you can light your candle once you've got your candle lit you can get a fire going now you don't use a lot of the candle I'll just let that burn with no wind blowing I'll use a very very small amount of that okay now fire triangle remember you need fuel we've got lots of fuel you need heat there's a candle you need oxygen are you familiar Lofty with the the concept we learnt now I learnt this at uni because I did social sciences and it's talking about group formation and they call it forming storming as in arguing norming as in like coming together as a team and performing it one of the things even though these a lot of these shows these days are pretty sensational like you say you know it's more about the gossip and the having some I don't know left-wing rastafarian lesbian dwarf to just upset the apple cart but what they do get really well is the way that groups come together learn each other's strengths and weaknesses and learn to accept them and then you know they always end up quite happy don't they on these programs that they really achieve something that that they never otherwise never would have well you know I ain't got a bit of paper to me known Chris you know but you know it's dealing with people you meet people and you can see like and you give them a little task of doing is same way up people and you're on about that castaway program the BBC they paid a thousand pound per person to be psychologically looked at you know for suitability for the island well all these people come and you say yeah they're okay she's good he's not nor that a man or woman psychiatrist who interviewed them all and she said lofty how come you can pick this out and this is common sense Chris you know what I mean in this experience I guess and they spent all this money doing these psychological profiles I couldn't believe it and you know you know yourself are you like with you and like sound selection I used to ask myself would I have that broken my patrol and that was good enough I ever say yes I know you know what I mean and you don't have to go through all these like fancy formulas and all the rest of it and tests and it's like CVs when people show CVs you know you think I did brilliant you know get them to do a practical thing useless and so I'll scrub all around that you know I just see the guy in face-to-face have a chat to him give me a task to do and see how they perform you know and you can eliminate all this bullshit really yeah yes of course of course as I'm getting older John I'm it's all about the ego for me now I realized if I work with people that are in their ego self it's fucking never ends well you know gotta be mature than that you know you gotta love people and love life and and you're a person Chris yeah yeah I tell you an interesting thing so I had an email recently lofty right and it's from a chap who's written a book he never got back to me by the way but he emails say could he could he come on a podcast and a book he's written it's called it's called something like the phony major and it's about David Sterling all right I see I see you know they're going to pay well ah it was the first I'd ever heard that there could be anything hooky I haven't read the book folks the guy didn't I said to him let's send me a copy I'll have a look yeah you know if there's anything in it you're welcome to come on the show we're all about openness and honesty and truth yeah didn't didn't reply to me so I don't know where that chaps probably been assassinated I would say Chris he probably had been kicked in the nuts by herford yeah no I've read that and I thought I never heard that before you know Sterling was the man he's the visionary he wanted started it all you know so yeah and I don't know where the guy got his information from but there you go every yeah don't matter who you are you're going to have your critics so yeah I read it John I'll be I mean I'll be interested to see what he's maybe you can I can probably glean something on Amazon about what it's supposed to be about but I didn't I thought I'd run that by you um jock louis he was a big big name wasn't he back in the early formation Lewis yeah jock louis sorry sorry yeah and was it right about that time I've just been reading a bit and they had a parachute jump in the early training and the first two blokes that went out there that the stag line wasn't fixed on right they had lots of fatalities and they jumped in high winds which was um into desert with a brownish solid you know and a lot of fatalities and it's like Malaya tree jumping again dangerous so in the jungle didn't they jump into the trees and yeah tree jumping yeah and then they had a you have cell device was fatal called a bikini and it was a friction device that like like a bikini bottoms you know and the tape went through a ring around this and a descender and it was it was lethal if it wasn't fitted right the ring went up under the diaphragm and blokes the pain was that much they cut themselves free and again you're talking about 200 foot canopy and they felt that sort of distance you know and in the trees with no sort of backup no possibility getting out you know for a long time or medical help and that's why they're parachute in the trees like you know what I mean so yeah dangerous and looking back Chris I realize how brave I was yeah you can say that again lofty you know I mean it's one thing to go through training now where health and safety has just been it's a fire I mean in the Marines we still lost a lot of people you know we lost people in Norway a lot of it was road out you know road accidents or people falling asleep in the snow vehicle and the fumes poisoning them at government looks like you know still lose a lot of people but as far as that health and safety it's you know it's bloody shit up yeah but back in 1945 or 39 it was all there was no such thing was there they they were they were make they were inventing everything that we see today Chris now with health and safety and politically correctness no way I couldn't operate it's easy is that you know it's um we we was always on thin ice took a lot of chances and um we didn't have the kid or any equipment but now it's um it's so clinical and like you said we still get casualties and that is that it's a danger of profession and it will never change you can't take all the dangers away the young start to make their life comfortable you know and take all the hardships away you can't do it it's a hard profession and you know the people are going to be up to it but i think it's still not as dangerous as what is it fishing trawler man and lumberjacks yeah i mean fishermen you take it there's nothing more powerful than the sea and um no they're are the man aren't they're there are coal miners you know people like that you know fantastic and in all the professions in the forces to me the bravest of the brave are the cooks you know and they all they get is criticized and hammered yet they do a fantastic job and um because i'm rewarded you know and i could never be a cook chris so every man who is trained you know but we couldn't survive without all the backups and like so when you read about all these heroes the heroes to me with your payblocks the cooks the bottle washes you know what i mean they done all the hard work which i couldn't have done we had the glamorous side of it you know and we got all the recognition and that but you know i take me off to all the supporting um arms like you know they are the heroes as well you know and when you start picking up okay who the heroes are i would go for people like that you know it's the cleaners like they do a great job which not a lot of people could do yes it's changing now though lofty because i said this quite a lot like i got massive respect for obviously my experience was royal marine chefs royal navy chefs being on ship those guys were just so brilliant to you especially if you're in the marines detachment they they cook you up little you know secret stuff little snacks but the food i mean everyone looked forward to meal time it wasn't like being in prison or somewhere it's just slop no this is the finest the royal marine chefs best if you ask me best chefs in in in in the world and i'm sure every service will will say the same that's good now though mate it's all this like um contracts contracts yes yes contracts and it's trying to get the money down yeah it's crap you go to limestone now you eat off a paper plate uh it's gone down it's gone down here a lot chris ah god we just how we miss the small things in life you know the small things that make you what you are and we just think i just give that up to money you know profit paper plate chuck it in a bin no plastic knife and fork chuck that it disposable ah but in in the middle east chris we had cooks with number one burners you know the old number one burner it was it was the first weapon of mass destruction really and it burned so many cooks we had so many cooks they burnt medium rare you know what i mean because it was petrol and they wouldn't let it cool down before trying to to refuel it but they produced magic mills in middle of nowhere number one burner and we ate like fighting cocks real good you know good good grub like you know when we did our survival exercise in training lofty right we we went up to a beautiful place up near post bridge in dartmore and uh we arrived last by the time we got all the other lads they found caves like these like wicked little caves and their defyers go and it was like luxury right me me and my oppo we built a basher as you taught me to lofty right we built a basher on a fallen fallen tree stump and i remember our troop boss come around and he went hmm not so nice as the other lads accommodation boys right but we had our little fire going in there we had our rabbit that we had to keep and then we had to eat it but here's the thing right my buddies um funny enough andy and andy that they hired a car the weekend before went to tesco filled the boot with ginsers pasties and mars bars and marathons and all snickers right they drove down to devon the week before because one of the lads andy was in he'd been in he'd got to he'd done this before in training he got to week 24 left training rejoined with our troop and went through it all again and when we got to the survival x he's like guys i know where it is what we're going to do we're going to fill the car with food and we'll go down and bury it right and so that's exactly what they did and one night they went right we're going for the food and for some reason it was like quite a few miles away they'd got something wrong but anyway they they they came back and i paid 70 quid right i've got a ginsers pasty in a mars bar from our 70 quid they spent the money on a weekend in birmingham i think it was right but but we had that and also inside the waistband in my boxer shorts i i put a tenor and there was a shop that you could sneak to nearby if as long as you didn't get caught anyway we did all get caught the training team walked past one of the bashers and there was like a a twix rapper or something on the floor next thing we was all in the river in september which doesn't sound cold but oh my god september the 21st my birthday it was the coldest thing i have at way colder than norway it was awful right under the water up under the water you want to eat food on exercise under the water but getting back to your point about the old burner right our training team thought they'd be really kind and make us what they called survival ex stew for the end of the exercise right so after seven days you know living on moths and they thought they thought we'd all be gagging to just scoff this bloody but like you said they burnt the hell out of it right they literally it just tasted like charcoal right and because everyone was so full up from all the food that we bought everyone's like now we're up we're fine corporal thank you um yeah we're the only people that came off with survival exercise actually put on weight um lofty two two more things yeah what do we think of the sas who does wins program do do we watch any of that yeah i i watch a couple for curiosity i don't watch it all the way through yeah the legs like they're making a living you know and um it's sensualism it's it's as far away from the reality of what the regiment really is it don't represent me at all or what i stand for you know what i mean but there you go the legs making a living and it's people's choice it's what it's what people want that's why they're getting away with it because it's popular and like say if you don't want to watch it just switch off that's what i'm saying chris you know and um the people doing and about the regiment and unfortunately it shows you in the wrong light this why i take the opportunity if i can like we'd be self to try and put things a bit you know um give it give my point of view you know what i mean and um but i i think it's um if people want to watch it that's you know it's down to them but it doesn't represent the regiment that i was in yeah i i i think people kind of get that unless they're you know pretty naive um what i what i mean olly ollerton who's a star of the show or certainly he's the star of the australian version now he's been on a podcast he's a really nice guy yeah funny enough they're mostly sbs aren't they there's i think billy billy billy billingum is um is is sass and uh couple of but what i what i really like is when they help people and that that to me was my expert the the best part of being in the british forces is that seeing someone struggling but they're not giving up come around here you can't beat it chris yeah sure you've got to encourage people you know one of them against these shows are they they're testing people on skills what they not taught them before you can test anyone you've got to teach them then you can test them and then you can criticize but these people straight from city street you know getting out of helicopters falling backwards in the water i would never do that chris we say never enter water head first you know never jump in the water unless you're absolutely got to and it's always feet first you know it's and going off backwards like that it's suicidal you know and some of the abcells they're doing it takes a lot of skill to do them abcells you know running down the mountain you know face first you know things like this and um i know it's all done for telly light but let's say it's um it's your choice to watch it or not um you can all that all we're highly critical let's say don't we'll always find fault with things and so um oh you know we was always better than the people we replaced you know i mean and we have to say in there the older i'll get the better i'll was and um and so it's all hype it's done for the telly uh it it's there by public demand and people watch it so they're doing something right but like i say the people who know or the regimen and that they um frown on it a bit you know yeah of course of course i i like to look at the good stuff that comes from it because i i know i've i've met vicariously or or actually in person all all the guys on it oh well except billy yeah um and you know very very nice very nice men you know um and i think foxy needs a big shout out because he was really one of the first people to talk about ptsd good boy yeah you know and tell his story and and um ollie's up there i don't know what i don't know where ollie's base is but he's he's helping people that never join the forces but they wanted that experience to you know go go on a weekend with him or a week or a training just to get a conference confidence up and you know a lot of people in life lofty damp they've never achieved anything every day you know never achieved anything and and um so i think it's good credit to the you know good good good credit to ollie with what he's doing yeah put something back that's what you know it's nice when people do that and the thing we all have to remember is the military's some people are lucky enough to our pensions i i'm certainly not um i don't think i serve long enough my back is absolutely screwed from my time in the marines and they won't give me a they won't give me a penny right so i think if you can use your military service to the good song i'm on an army pension and it worked out when the army owe me i've got a little 158 years old yeah and so that's my goal to live as well and i'm not going to be cheated by a penny yes so you didn't get a pension christ now i may i've got nothing i've i've literally i'm you could say i'm disabled like i mean i'm i'm in chronic pain this is why whenever i'm when you see me do this it's because the pain in my back's too much i can't just lift myself up a bit and but why didn't you get a pension chris you know you got hurt on judy no the reason was is you had to report it to the sick bay right all right well here's the thing lofty and i'm not i'm not this is not like match your bullshit on a i grew up in a time you didn't fucking report stuff to the doc you didn't run to the doctor you know if you had a bad back you went home you took some paracetamol you laid on the couch and you struggled into working in it so i'll never reported it you know i never reported it and i could probably get lawyers on to or something but i'm not i don't care about that i i i just think keep smashing life and life will you know give you good stuff back i'm not i'm not bothered about a minute military pension um well in my case chris i um i wanted to get a five year extension so i burnt me medical docs and uh that was great i got me five year extension but then when you start want to claim against things you got no evidence yes i got no it's a funny old world yeah exactly lofty very last thing i want to talk to you about is my favorite thing in my favorite course i did was parachute in the yeah up up there at brice norton did did you do that one or did you do in your day was that they're all this specialist hey ho hey i'm starting me parent basic pair of course with a pair as a abingdon and then um i was on the second freefall course when i come to register in the second freefall course that the um the army run and i was two troop which was freefall troop in ace squadron and then in 66 we won the army championships this is a regiment which is the only three folders in the country and we had the ss skydivers was a display team i remember a bit of that as well for a bit you know and uh we went into the nationals uh and the regiment or the parachute regiment a few jumpers uh with them used to win it all you know so that was my life parachuting and now you mentioned it um i've now got more courage it would take me 10 blocks and put me in the aircraft and another 20 to throw me out Chris but when i was on my basic course um i was more frightened of refusing you know facing up to the instructors then i was jumping out the door to me the coward's option was jumping out the door like and i remember brides not on big sign sorry abandoned knowledge dispels fear that's the pair of training school motto i must spin the figures anything because i was terrified Chris but you know like i say in the end we just pay for our jumps you know what i mean freefall like later on you know so it's all down to training you know what you what you want to do you know what i mean yeah mate i was in that balloon cage with free baby parrots no disrespect folks we call they called themselves baby parrots right they just graduated with a got their berries bloody good effort um so i'm in that balloon cage and there's free baby parrots with me and uh the pji the parachute jump instructor says right who's first out the door you can imagine my how fast my arm went up so um i got in the door he said arms across your reserve oh i just turned around went i'll see you guys on the ground you're on a roll when i when i caught up with him on on on the ground dunk dunking if you ever get to watch this get in touch with me it was a love great lad parallel that i made real good friends with uh i got on the ground i said dunk what did you think when i was like i'll see you guys on the ground he went uh actually chris we're all just like fucking shitting ourselves i didn't really hear no good they don't they don't do the balloon no more right chris oh mate they don't they don't no more balloon jumps they do some sort of caravan you know session a caravan kind of you know or sky van i think they call it and and the new um replacement of the hercules aircraft they cannot do static line jumps from because of the prop wash apparently so uh i don't know where i don't know what we're coming to mate i was gonna say yeah that's screwed up all our bloody post-war history in it it's gonna be no was it on him again yeah this is a glory yeah oh i love that course dofty i really loved it when i was in a herk i used to hang around at the when they were when they were loading in the sticks i always would just hang around and then tag on the back because then i knew i knew i'd be first out the door door yeah and i used to scream so loud going out the door it folks you're not supposed to do this but i um the the guy behind me thought i died he said chris you scream so loudly right i mean like a viking warrior scream not not not a sissy one folks he said chris i thought you died and i didn't want to jump out yeah we we used to like going to rf stations because they had knives and forks cups on the table they had butter and it was so civilized and that's why we like going to the rf food was excellent you know yeah the way i think of it is they're fighter jets and they're bombs and everything they're so expensive that that to take a bit off that budget for the food is like nothing for them you know it's like nothing and and and we'll miss out yeah oh my god it was good wasn't it it was it was um like five-star food for the area lofty listen i could chat for for ages but what i'd rather do is invite you back on again at you know some later stage um i thoroughly enjoyed this catch up i i think i think we've hit a few of ticked a few of the boxes for everybody at home um massive massive stay on the line lofty after i hit the off button and i and then i can thank you properly and also i was gonna it's gonna try and borrow 20 quid off you if that's okay yeah it's in the post chris but no lofty massive love to you and your wonderful family please take care of yourself thank you for being a legend to to so so so many of us thank you for your service which is not something you'll hear me say very very often but i do genuinely mean it um let's chat again soon and to everybody at home much love to you too i do i hope you've enjoyed this is uh as much as i have and that we'll see you soon thank you