P1- Galatians - Pauline Letters

http://evolutionsofchristianity.blogspot.com/

Marcionite Reconstruction:
http://www.gnosis.org/library/marcion/Galatian.htm

Galatians NIV1984 Version:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+1&version=NIV1984

Clement of Alexandria, Stromata Book 1 Ch 22
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/clement-stromata-book1.html

Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin 21b
http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_21.html

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Category:

Education

Tags:

• Xoroaster
• Zoroaster
• Epistle To The Galatians
• Pauline
• Letters
• Pauline Epistles
• Null
• Hypothesis
• evolutions of christianity
• visions
• prophecy
• apocalypse
• Revelation
• Jerusalem
• Talmud
• Clement of Alexandria
• Galatians
• Visions

[soifrane]

About the visions: someone makes fun wondering if it comes from epilepsy or wine / drugs. In the 20th century and today there are lots of poeple who say they have "visions"/revelations and stuff: See all the people who wrote books inspired by "channelling" experiences, every sunday there are 1000s of evangelicals/pentecostals who experience that sort of things and I do not list members of other religions or ... no religion at all. U don't need to be epileptic/drunk/stoned or fall from a horse.

[Jaybird196]

I might have just had a weird thought. Could one apply the "going up" thing to Elisha when the children said "go up, thou bald head"? Like the the the kids are more than just taunting him about his baldness, but also tempting him to call Yahweh? Just a thought.

[Xoroaster]

@markdzima Cont B

I think it is convenient, to grant all the dates on this stuff, claim Paul started this religion, and blast the crap out of him. It is the description in Acts, that supports that claim.

Acts is important, but it's also fiction. Which makes about three mentions in the Pauline letters look like Redacted "Lore." I'm trying to hang on to Galatians 1, 2, as Authentic. And I can defend that position. I want to know Paul's take on his "Visions," because Acts is wrong.

[Xoroaster]

@markdzima The nuttiest christians today, are also a very poor representation of all christians in the first and second century. Most of the early ones would probably be considered insane hippie hobos. Basically harmless, virtually useless, and highly superstitious.

I find the idea of drugs or diseases interesting, and sometimes humorous. I also don't think it applies, because their entire religion depends on "Revealed" information.

A

[markdzima]

@Xoroaster  I am one who holds a naturalistic point of view. So I mean it just seems "real" to Paul. What does "seems real to Paul" mean? It does NOT mean that Paul is saying, as you or I might:"I daydreamed I met Christopher Hitchens, and it was so cool!" It would mean (if I thought Paul was describing a true vision in which he spoke w/ Peter) that he believed himself to have been in actual communication with the true Peter, not aware it is was mere figment of his imagination.

[Xoroaster]

@markdzima Alright, I'm getting tired and crabby.

Seriously though, when you ask if Paul thought New Jerusalem was "real," the answer is yes. But it is belief based, so it's not "substance" and he knows it. "Substance," is not as real as "Land of Forms." And all of this is "Land of Forms" based.

[Xoroaster]

@markdzima "common", as in meeting Peter and James in heaven? Seriously? Would you believe him? It's not like Paul doesn't have competition. And as he specifically says:

9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

Dude, I beginning to think you haven't read Galatians. Answer the question, what do YOU mean by "real," and I'll tell you if Paul thought it was "real."

[markdzima]

@Xoroaster And why do you think Paul would need to swear he wasn't lying if he was doing something common?

[Xoroaster]

@markdzima Oh ok, I see what you're saying. No, there's nothing dogmatic there. It's very simply, a vision mention.

Now, did it he believe it was Real? Depends on what you mean, versus what Paul would mean, by "Real." They are not the same thing. Paul mentions the word "Apocalypse" 13 times in his texts. So, what do you mean by "real?"

[markdzima]

@Xoroaster Quoting you in the P1-Gal video: "Every time Paul says that he went up to Jerusalem in this book, he literally had a vision of heaven." (time 1:52), also "The final verse begs the reader to believe that Paul is not lying. But why would he lie about meeting Peter and James?"(2:05) with you explaining (I'll jump to the briefer summary) "Paul is speaking to dead people" (3:00) while you show a visual of a seance. What do you now see as "Dogmatic rather than Visionary"?

[Xoroaster]

@markdzima The Galatians text is very peculiar. I don't think Paul ever mentions Peter, John, or James outside of Galatians. Which means it's probably one of two things: A Vision, or a Redaction. I'm fighting for vision because it doesn't discount the text.

I don't care if it's a Redaction, but the text points toward an authentic Vision. I can defend that position, so I do. Otherwise, it probably becomes Lore. And very likely, a Redaction.

[Xoroaster]

@markdzima On New Jerusalem specifically, that seems Dogmatic rather than Visionary. Unless you're speaking of the "third heaven" reference, which only indicates that a Vision occurred. He's not very detailed about it. I doubt it some kind of lucid Vision.

Some of the Apocryphons take that to a very high level of detail, but even then, it's mostly just imagination. Mostly determined by Cosmology, and theological doctrine.