NORMAN FINKELSTEIN VS GIL TROY 1 of 3

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http://Democracynow.org January 08, 2007
Controversy continues over Jimmy Carters recent book Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid. We host a debate on the former presidents book with two leading scholars: DePaul University professor Norman Finkelstein, author of Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History and McGill University professor Gil Troy, author of Why I Am a Zionist: Israel, Jewish Identity, and the Challenges of Today.

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[32116181]

@DjKahle Well said and well presented! thnx

[DjKahle]

@DjKahle Edit: instead of evolved, i meant to say claim ownership of the desert is ludicrous since by crazy zionist logic, even the cradle of civilization theory would entitle everyone to the whole Mesopotamian area as our ancestral homeland homeland. The idea is stupid. Modern day people and countries have a responsibility to behave in a respectable manner.

[DjKahle]

@32116181 White people of any religion or philosophy saying they evolved from the desert is just ludicrous. It's akin to Europeans whether, jew, christian, muslim or atheist thinking they in fact descended from North/South America, therefore justifying the mass killings of millions of indigenous people in that area. We can't fix mistakes of the past but we should go out of our way to make sure we don't repeat the same mistakes a leave even more racial tension for future generations.

[32116181]

@DjKahle great post! logic and truth! the funny thing is,even if all was put aside... does the findings of the International Courts,International Law,160 countries, Amnesty international and many other respected and recognized human rights groups and from israel at that! The U.N has shown the facts ex presidents have spoken against the occupation! and of course they ll claim no race because they have nothing left to use as a lie! 10% semetic 90% euor,russia, and where ever els they came from!

[JerrySPsy]

@DjKahle As proof of my assertions you can look up records of land purchases by Jews by Googling Naftalie Greenwood. Google Shaw Commission & Peel Commission for for investigative reports of the British on who started the violence & why.Read the Academy of Sciences DNA reports linking Jews to their M.E. origins. Look at Holy Land religious artifacts from thousands of years ago showing Jewish symbols & Hebrew writing. Start doing some real research to present valid arguments & not your pure BS.

[JerrySPsy]

@DjKahle It hardly matters what it was called - Jews had been living there for generations too. Those that lived there 2,000 years were scattered to Europe or other areas after conquest. Their progeny wanted to return as it is the Holy Land of the Jews. Again, the bought land or settled in areas that no one else wanted, then the international community granted them pieces of it but the Arabs had to have it all - even though they own 99.9% of the Middle East lands.

[JerrySPsy]

@DjKahle In some circumstances there was pressure from the international community to avoid capturing land or cities in wars of to give back land. Sometimes land was given back to advance the peace process or as a gesture of good will. Funny how the world never steps in to stop Arab countries from ganging up on tiny Israel in an attempt to wipe it out but the minute the Jews start countering the threats & winning then comes the talk of ceasefire, stopping the advance & giving back land.

[JerrySPsy]

@DjKahle Jews were already living in the Holy Land and more came to join them. The Ottoman Empire was defeated and the Brits with the League of Nations voted to allow Jews to have a piece of the country. But Arabs wanted it all and started all the ethnic cleansing. There is plenty of solid DNA evidence linking Jews throughout the diaspora to their ancient ancestors in the Middle East. You deny all that research to delegitimize the Jewish claim to their historic homeland. Nice try.

[JerrySPsy]

@DjKahle The Jews did not start ANY of the wars and your lies and deceit are becoming transparent - as is your agenda. Hotel bombing? Oh you mean the King David? The hotel was warned that a wing was targeted - and why? Because the British broke into the Jewish Agency and stole all of their top secret documents to deal with the threat of Arab massacres of Jews & these documents had to be retrieved or destroyed. You reap what you sow. Political lobbying is not propaganda.

[JerrySPsy]

@DjKahle He hides behind it in a self-righteous way to play the victim and then claims that because of the Holocaust he was moved to champion the right of the downtrodden - such as the oppressed Palestinians. The essential flaw to that, and your skewed view of Zionism, is that Zionists came in peace & bought land or settled in open unarable areas and were victims of murders massacres, wars, etc. Tiny Israel was supposed to be a haven for Jews to escape genocide & persecution.

[DjKahle]

@JerrySPsy Palestine was desolate, therefore jews have more right to it because...?

it was called Palestine, not israel. It never belonged to "jews", not even 2000 years ago. A mixed blooded arab from Afghanistan has more rights to that land than than any of you. You're all just a mix of euro/russian/usa jews who have more right to parts ukraine than anywhere remotely near the middle east. For you to say that shows how diluted your mind is about your own racial identity.

[DjKahle]

@JerrySPsy Your people started it when a bunch of white people suddenly believed enough of their own bullshit they decided to go and infest their "homeland" according to their 2000 year old scripture.

Israel and zionism are genetic falsehoods. There is no evidence to prove any white skinned person's homeland is anywhere in the middle east.

You feel the pressure of the international community, so you religious nutjobs have to give land back, then act like you weren't con-questing.

[DjKahle]

@JerrySPsy Hides behind it how? You can't explain how he is self hating yet is proud of his family history and heritage you're just grasping at straws and it's rather pathetic.

Zionism is the most flawed philosophy on the planet. It's equivalent to the millions of Chinese Muslims suddenly having such an intense craving to inhabit mecca that they start multiple wars, hotel bombings, issuing propaganda spanning the entire world, all the while claiming it is their homeland.

[JerrySPsy]

@DjKahle Just how did I slander all Arabs. I state nothing that is not 100% factual about what they & their leaders have attempted & done. You on the other hand are a bold-faced liar. "Zionist colonial conquest?" Who started the violence? If Israel was into colonial conquest why would they give back, Gaza, the Sinai, S. Lebanon, & retreat from conquering numerous other cities during wars - namely Cairo and Damascus? DNA evidence does not lie. What mistake?! Wanting to leave in peace?

[JerrySPsy]

@DjKahle He manifest hatred for his own religion in other ways & hides behind the fact that his family was in the holocaust. Just as Mecca is hold to the Muslims so is Israel holy to Jews & for him to vilify it the way he does is shameful. He picks up on the action at the point where the Jews turned back all attempts to wipe them out and puts measures in place to safeguard their citizenry and he has the nerve to fault them for that!? The Arabs were the ones who started ethnic cleansing.

[DjKahle]

@JerrySPsy Keep using blanket statements to slander all arabs, nothing justifies zionist colonial conquest. If zionists knew enough to look in the mirror and realize it's scientifically impossible to decend from dark skinned people regardless of what they want to believe or what their favorite book tells them. There would never have been any issue, so keep defending a mistake your ancestors made, it's just getting rather pathetic, your own people are telling the truth 4 your own good.

[DjKahle]

@JerrySPsy self hating jew? I've heard him talk about his parents who were in the holocaust, he is a proud jew. Keeping his last name is also evidence of this, someone who is ashamed or hates their Jewishness would clearly have shown attempts to hide it.

[JerrySPsy]

@bassammaelborno I have plenty of self-respect thank you very much. And you should show some ability to debate issues & offer meaningful refutation instead of relying on ad hominem attacks & acting all arrogant. But I applaud your running off. It was foolish to resurrect a 2,000 yr old book so when you get more recent material please be sure to let me know. Also, try looking at what the Arabs did to force Zionists to defend themselves and ensure a safe country for its citizens.

[JerrySPsy]

@bassammaelborno Any attitudes toward gentiles, codes of sexual conduct, marriage, etc. were reflective of that time and while some seem rather laughable today that apparently had their place & reasoning back them. Even the Bible had contradictions and inconsistencies and no religious text is perfect and truly only one, at best, can have everything right since no two religions agree with one another. I think you should be more worried about Sharia law coming to a town near you!

[JerrySPsy]

@bassammaelborno I just love how you self-proclaim to win an argument when you present zero evidence, continue to rely on statements from self-hating Jews to support your lame premises, and completely ignore the essential issues. 1) Zionism was peaceful movement until Arab aggression forced it to develop first defensive and then offensive capabilities and 2) The Talmud is largely an outmoded antiquity and is irrelevant in the daily lives of most Jews.

[bassammaelborno]

@JerrySPsy

Do show some self-respect.

Now all you seem intent on doing is making a Fool of yourself.

I refuse to allow you to continue to do so.

Shalom (Goodbye)