Kirnberger's keyboard temperament, 1771, playing Bach

Johann Philipp Kirnberger's keyboard temperament, published 1771 in "Die Kunst des reinen Satzes".

Pure: Db-Ab-Eb-Bb-F-C-G-D 5ths.
Pure: C-E major 3rd.
Pure: E-B-F# 5ths.
Heavily tempered: D-A-E 5ths.
Schisma: F#-Db slightly narrow.

Musical illustrations: Bach's prelude and fugue in C major, from the Well-Tempered Clavier (book 1), 1722.

Bradley Lehman, harpsichord

Category:

Music

Tags:

• kirnberger
• bach
• well
• tempered
• clavier
• prelude
• fugue
• keyboard
• temperament
• tuning
• harpsichord
• clavecin
• cembalo

[mtv565]

What temperament? Don't be a joke! Re-tune this out-of-tune keyboard!

[thebpl]

@mtv565 This is what Kirnberger II sounds like, tuned accurately. Tune it yourself on another harpsichord to hear its handful of rough intervals even more directly. Part of the point of this video is: this temperament has these serious problems in it.

[cber2360]

nothing wrong with this temperament. Though I play professionally, I've not used the Kirnberger temperaments, but I may use start using this for late 18th century German themed concerts/recitals.

I'm intrigued though by the pure third C-E, is that definitely correct? I know sometimes it's possible to make mistakes tuning unfamiliar temperaments.

[thebpl]

@cber2360 The pure major 3rd C-E is definitely correct: it was one of Kirnberger's main points to use as many non-beating intervals as possible. Personally, I think this temperament sounds awful, with the rough D-A-E 5ths and the Pythagorean major 3rds at so many places. Have you tried the Bach temperament that I have in most of my other videos, and at larips com ?

[thebpl]

@cber2360 This temperament irks me even more melodically than it does harmonically. The C major fugue here is full of scale passages whose intonation sounds lumpy, when pressed through this temperament.

[thebpl]

This was the important (and published) one during Kirnberger's lifetime and beyond.

The one we know as "Kirnberger III" was only part of a private letter from Kirnberger to Forkel. It wasn't published until 1871, which was more than 80 years after Kirnberger's death.

[susumu07]

Just curious, what sort of temperament did Rameau use?

[fasteddie5439]

I always thought keyboard instruments were easy until I started reading about all these tunings. I'm glad I only have four strings to tune on my cello.

[atemperman]

@thebpl, My assessment comes from being an amateur oboist and singer, so perhaps my melodic sense is finer than a harmonic sense that tolerates a 406 E-G# but dislikes 408 Pythag M3s. Is there any historical record of folks like Kirnberger actually tuning real harpsichords (or clavichords or pianos), or were their domains exclusively composing, teaching, and theorizing? Incid'ly, I'd like to discuss with you the idea that leading #'s (ti-do) should be less stable than leading flats (mi-fa).

[atemperman]

@thebpl, I agree with you on its faults being more melodic than harmonic, at least for music that stays close to the home key of C major. Pythagorean thirds will be rare in a piece like WTC 846 (off the top of my head, I'd guess that there'd be A-C# and E-G# pythag. thirds in this piece, but I can't remember exactly. To be fair, the Lehman/Bach temperament has a nearly-pythag E-G# and a "worse"-than-usual (for informed early-mid 18th cen. chromatic keyboard music) A-C# third.

[cber2360]

@thebpl I'm interested at the moment in the difference there might have been between 'amateur' and 'profi' temeperaments. There possibility that people such as Sebastian B and Telemann - as specialists - might have had temperaments that worked for them, but popular publications such as Werkmeister's treatise, or Kirnberger's (don't know yet if it was popular) had workable temperaments that good amateurs and middle class musicians might have used. Don't know if I can explain well in youtube

[cber2360]

@thebpl oh are you Bradley Lehman? I LOVE your bach temperament! I think you're right on with it, and I've used it many times for J.S and C.P.E. Bach. I've used it in C.P.E. Bach concerti where temperament becomes very noticeable and it was just right. It had all the different colours you might associate with different keys while keeping them all playable.