A debate with Sir Anthony Buzzard (Unitarian) 1/13

A debate between Sir Anthony Buzzard, an Emeritus Professor of the Unitarian Atlanta Bible College in the USA and Robert Skynner (a Trinitarian) from the UK, which took place on the 16th October 2011 in paltalk.com. This video is the first of thirteen parts. The title of this debate is: 'Sir Anthony Buzzard said that Jesus Christ was not the creator of the Universe.'

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[kyzersoze74]

Bob, I agree with you that "the Father is the source and the Son the means of Creation"...but the question should be, WHICH/WHAT creation? Col 1 is not talking about the Genesis [birds, trees, etc.] but a "spiritual creation" [thrones, powers, etc.]. And Heb 1 is referring to a future world [Heb 2.5; Ps 102.22-27].

Also, how can do you account for the fact that Jesus himself attributes the Genesis creation to SOMEONE ELSE OTHER THAN HIMSELF in Mat 19.4; Mar 10.6; 13.19?

[MrLimeyBob]

@kyzersoze74  How could the father be testifying to a future REcreation, using an aorist (past tense - completed action) at Hebrews 1:10.

[cheddyrod]

@k0smon That is exactly my point.

[k0smon]

@cheddyrod ::: And where will we find his writings? As far as is known, he left no written records. What is written about him was done long after his 'death'.

[Szygyify]

An excellent in depth debate between a Trinitarian Gradationist espousing Temporal Incarnational Subordinationism and a Socinian Unitarian who denies the pre-human existence and divinity of Jesus/Logos.

[anissueofursincerity]

@MrLimeyBob By the time Hebrews was written Jesus had ascended.

[kyzersoze74]

@MrLimeyBob...you mean like Isa 9.6? Past tense action of prophecy does not help you. The fact is that the "creation" in view is a future, prophetic one by the use of Ps 102. This is furthered proven by Heb 2.5.

[clausewitzmoltke]

@cheddyrod Hey that is good advise. Can you tell me where I can find any of his writings.

[cheddyrod]

Jesus Christ is the son of God and hell of a bright guy. Now if you look at his writings everything will be clear to you.

[kyzersoze74]

“If God’s role is as Creator, both source (ek) and agent (dia), as in Romans 11.36, then Jesus shares in that role as divine agent (dia) but not as source (ek). The identity is partial...’Equation’ seems to be a better way of saying that if Jesus is God he is not YHWH, he is not the Father, he is not the source of creation, he will finally be subject to God so that God (alone) will be all in all.” J.D.G. Dunn, Did the First Christians Worship Jesus?, p. 144.