Do Morals require God? Abdullah al Andalusi vs Dr Robert Stovold

The topic for discussion was "Do Morals Require God?" The speakers were:

Abdullah Al-Andalusi on behalf of MDI

Dr Robert Stovold on behalf of the NSS

The event took place on 12/05/10 University of Southampton, UK

Category:

Travel & Events

Tags:

• atheism
• secular
• morality
• debate
• god
• muslim
• abdullah
• al
• andalusi
• national
• society
• islam
• quran
• rationality
• Dawkins
• Intelligent

[IAmARationalApe]

@KNOWNMuslim001 what?

[KNOWNMuslim001]

@IAmARationalApe We, humans, don't know how God can be eternal.

[IAmARationalApe]

@KNOWNMuslim001

Answer to Q1: I don't see how postulating something else (i.e. a God) as the creator of this Universe solves the problem of discovering ultimate origin of everything if you are unable to answer the question of how this God came into existence?

Answer to Q2: This question is incoherent. Please rephrase.

[Ijustasking]

@mujtahid2006 When I say "natural want", this includes everything humans generally want, it should not be limited to low level biology. psychology tells us we have empathy (natural dislike of pain experience by others). There is fascinating work on "mirror neurons". We naturally want things like: peace, harmonious relations with others...etc. It is to our benefit to cooperate with others...Plus what you said can be said of theism, God can ask you to do things that harm others then what?

[Ijustasking]

@mujtahid2006 are saying you agree that YOU can't win the argument with the rapist either?

>>.. and minimise B.

Evidence show that rapists and murderers are rarely happy people, they might wrongly seek what they perceive as A, but in the long run they often experience: mental turmoil guilt (B), alienation(B), fear of being caught, and also miss out on things like genuine intimacy (A), love(A), feeling of trust and safety (A) ..etc. so on balance they are really loosing out objectively.

[mujtahid2006]

@Ijustasking

There are a few critiques of: "morality is that which we should do to have more of what we naturally want and less of what we don't want"

For we may want something that damages us or others. Now, human experience of life is individual, not collective - so we perceive harm and benefit from a self-centred viewpoint. If I was not conditioned with social empathy (like some youth today), I will not be restrained from doing what benefits me just because it doesn't harm others.

[Ijustasking]

@mujtahid2006 I see, I think we might be using language differently here, if by "intrinsic existence" you mean it exists in the same way the moon exists then of course I don't think it does exists morality is an idea. I think we starting from two definitions of the word "morality":

you: "morality is that which god mandated/approved we should do in our live"

me: "morality is that which we should do to have more of what we naturally want and less of what we don't want".

[mujtahid2006]

@Ijustasking

"You can't win an argument with a rapist because he might not share your assumption"

You're right, I can't win an argument with an Atheist Rapist as to why he should not rape someone, if there is no harm for him (and only benefit). Your absolutely right, and you have unwittingly made my point :)

Secondly, If Rapist wants to have Sex with victim (self-interest 'A'), and not be frustrated (harm 'B'), then he will seek to maximise A and minimise B.

[mujtahid2006]

@Ijustasking

Humans can do empirical verification of tangible objects within the material world - of which the only morality is the possible and impossible. For anything else, there must be an appeal to a transcendent metaphysical reality. Now Atheists don't have to win this one - they can merely say "fine, there is no morality, big wup" - defending Morality is only a matter of culture and tatse for Atheists, so you shouldn't be squemish about denying it's intrinsic existence.

[Ijustasking]

@mujtahid2006 You can't win an argument with a rapist because he might not share your assumption that deity is more worthy to listen to than a human, he might say why should I do what God says? -note here am ignoring for now that the deity is invisible and its very existence controversial-

Natural morality is simpler:

1 Humans naturally want some things A and don't want other things B (can empirically determined)

2 Humans should do things that increase A, and minimize B (only assumption)