Once more on the compatibility of normativity and determinism

People,...just...get over it. Reason and determinism are irreconcilable. Unless free will exists, then reason and morality and all other prescriptions and normative facts are meaningless.

Oh, and divine-command morality proves nothing because divine command morality needs at least one free agent in order to exist

Category:

Education

Tags:

• free
• will
• libertarianism
• compatibilism
• morality
• determinism
• honestdiscussioner
• tooltime9901

[tooltime9901]

putting aside the fact that i disagree with you, here is why this video sucked: you simply made sweeping statements with little or no elaboration, justification, thought experiments, examination of the relevant ideas/concepts or anything of the sort and expect people to agree with you on the basis of said sweeping statements.

[migkillertwo]

There's plenty of justification. You, for whatever reason, can't quite understand it.

[tooltime9901]

shouting into a formless void? fucking bull shit! as I already pointed out, determined or not, people's outcomes CAN be altered and herded towards some ideal.

you are basically saying that the only reason to make a moral command boils down to so that people can choose or not choose to do it. that's ridiculous!

[migkillertwo]

"fucking bull shit! as I already pointed out, determined or not, people's outcomes CAN be altered and herded towards some ideal."

True, the effects can be realized by shouting commands and giving arguments, but as we understand them, this is because there is meaning in commands and arguments. But there's no room for such arguments and commands to have any meaning. So they're really just grunts.

[tooltime9901]

"But there's no room for such arguments and commands"

another sweeping statement backed by nothing!

[migkillertwo]

*ugh*

Okay, tooltime, if I give you a reason to not be a determinist, were the words I presented meaningful, and the meaning caused you to think and abandon your determinism, or were they simply sounds which act as the cause of "you" "abandoning" a "belief"?

[trick0171]

You keeps saying that nothing normative can exist in a deterministic universe, and yet you make no point that logically supports this claim.

Also utilitarianism is not incompatible with determinism. Suffering happens in a causal universe (it is caused), and people can (causally) desire not to suffer.

You make claims but support them with nothing but other unsupported claims.

[trick0171]

@migkillertwo

Sorry but you are way off on this entire video.

"Shouting moral commands in a deterministic universe has no meaning to it"

The point is that thoughts and communication are causal elements. They cause memes that align with "good" "bad', etc. Good/bad, right/wrong can be determined entirely causally, and our alignment with those morals (ethics) can be entirely causal as well. Free will is not needed for this.

(MORE)

[Antisyncretism]

I wouldn't call myself a calvinist as I quite simply do not know exactly what doctrines must all be together to be called Calvinist, I disagree with the calvinistic Limited Atonement (because this supposed that there is like a measuring stick of how much redemption Jesus' death was and 'measuring' the bloods availability seems an odd thing to suppose a doctrine on).

I do agree with Predestination though (well even the word itself is in the Bible), yes God saves.

But short answer: no.

[WayOfTheBastard]

Are you a Calvinist?

[Antisyncretism]

But you cannot will something unless YOU will it, what you are describing sounds like compatibilism, which I think is true :).

To have will the will must be your own for the will to be your own it must come from you and therefore be of you and under you, hence your control and your will.

But nvm what you describe as determinism I believe I accept (unless I misunderstood your description) as compatibilism as I don't see determined causal events and freewill as contradicting but coexisting

[WayOfTheBastard]

Mig I am totally making you a response, I hope I hear something from you.

[WayOfTheBastard]

You don't understand what determinism means. Has nothing to do with will or choice, but whether your will or choice are free. You can will and choose all day long and still be determined.

[Antisyncretism]

Again how can I be willingly CHOOSING to be ignorant if freewill does not exist, be consistent and dont speak that way then.

[MCTMD1]

You are doing that. You are lost. We're done.