"The New Atheism" (2008), lecture by John Gray (part 4 of 4)

"The New Atheism", Theos/LICC lecture by Professor John N. Gray (June 16, 2008)

John Gray, the author of "Black Mass: Apocalyptic Religion and the Death of Utopia" and former professor of European Thought at the London School of Economics gave a lecture on the New Atheism at an event co-hosted by Theos, the public theology think tank, and the London Institute for Contemporary Christianity.

Originally published at Times Online (June 24, 2008).

See also the article by John Gray on the "atheist delusion": http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/mar/15/society

John Gray at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_N._Gray

NOTE: Stay on topic. Irrelevant comments will be removed without warning.

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[Tuber77]

@d3st88 No more boring then listening to dawkins go on and on about how religion is bad.

[Schizopantheist]

@Schizopantheist There is a teleology buried in what you are saying that is by no means justified by evidence (it is essentially a faith).

I dont deny 'advances' but i think they should be viewed dialectically; ie- an advance can entail, at the same time, a step back (or something negative).

You assume that things will continue to get better and i think it is good to believe this- but it is nevertheless only a faith (and by whose standards are all things getting better?).

Asteroid= game over.

[Schizopantheist]

@MegaYip.- I think i see what you saying but there are hidden assumptions and perhaps flaws in your argument....

If techno-science leads us to denude the planet of resources will this realy be an advance? If we come to be ruled (herded?) by AIs will this really be an advance? If there is a nuclear or bio-weapon apocalypse will this really be an advance?

Slavery still exists today. Many common goods in the west are produced or extracted by slaves (even child slaves)... etc

[unfad1ng]

humans are to stupid

[d3st88]

@g0tfrohwned

Plus he talks in a rather boring and distracting manner. Not to mention he does not back up his claim with credible sources.

[joaosardinha]

@MegaYippie ««Yes it is, we look to the past when we decide what's good today - we no longer keep slaves or treat women as second class citizens»»

It's true, for modern western democracies at least, yet, despite all the so called moral advances, the 20th century saw the largest bloodsheds, wars, genocides, abuses and totalitarian regimes, most of them supported by the advances of science. Unfortunately, "who we are" has not changed as much as science, and religion recognizes this.

[g0tfrohwned]

35 minutes of my life wasted on this... I didn't learn anything from it and I don't think he actually has a point.

[MegaYippie]

I also think the world will become more secular as time pass - or rather I hope it will, so that morally retarded (for instance, those that thinks scripture holy) people won't stop the rest of us from living.

This, however, is not a deterministic point of view - I work quite a bit to correct these silly points people try to make online and in person. I want religion gone so I'll work for it - of course those that agree with me work against religion as well. We might fail - but we'll try anyway!

[MegaYippie]

However I must say that defining addition as a religion is quite hard for me as I've never, at all, heard, a non-nihilist, argument against it. But I'll give the speaker that one - addition is my scientific atheistic religion.

Now values on the other hand is quite a bit harder so I'll be concise. I value being alive - so do most atheists I've ever listened or spoken to. As such I like the values of humanists and I'm against those religions that value not living eternally more than life.

TBC

[MegaYippie]

Of course atheists have religious views on certain matters - the scientific atheists, for instance, thinks that knowing something is neat and most of us (see how grouping works now) have quite strong believes regarding the possibility of finding stuff out - we believe we exist and that the things we can interact with does too.

My way of defining this belief is addition, I believe that the concept of additions is valid and applicable to the world around us. 1+1=2 can mean people or apples.

TBC