Proposition 8: Three Questions for its Supporters

It disheartens me that the biggest supporters of Prop 8 were religious groups and highly religious people: http://www.californiansagainsthate.com/dishonorRoll.html

Religion, if anything, is supposed to be a force broadening our love for one another, *particularly* for those different from ourselves. How does excluding gay couples from marriage show love?

More importantly, gay marriage being recognized by the government would NOT force churches to perform gay marriages. (That's what's neat about the whole separation of church and state thing.) If churches don't want to support gay marriage, fine; but what right do they have to impose their religious belief on those not in their religion? What right do Mormons, Catholics, evangelicals or any others have to bar gays of other faiths from marriage? As an American, I find this gross interference between church and state shameful.

But if I can't convince you that gay couples have a right to get married, perhaps someone below can:

Wanda Sykes Comes Out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6UdoCIYvIw

Keith Olbermann's Special Comment on Prop 8: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVUecPhQPqY

Jon Stewart on The Daily Show talking with Mike Huckabee: http://blog.indecision2008.com/2008/12/10/mike-huckabee-will-not-marry-jon-un...

The hilarious "Prop 8: The Musical": http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/c0cf508ff8/prop-8-the-musical-starring-jack-...

Funny man Roy Zimmerman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bja2ttzGOFM

Mildred Loving, the woman arrested for miscegenation (mixing of the races) whose Supreme Court case, Loving v. Virginia, won her the right to wed the man she loved, said this on the 40th anniversary of the decision (http://www.freedomtomarry.org/pdfs/mildred_loving-statement.pdf):

"Surrounded as I am now by wonderful children and grandchildren, not a day goes by that I don't think of Richard and our love, our right to marry, and how much it meant to me to have that freedom to marry the person precious to me, even if others thought he was the "wrong kind of person" for me to marry. I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry. Government has no business imposing some people's religious beliefs over others. Especially if it denies people's civil rights.

"I am still not a political person, but I am proud that Richard's and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, black or white, young or old, gay or straight seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That's what Loving, and loving, are all about."

Or what about a gay couple who needs the legal protections of marriage in order to protect a developmentally handicapped boy (a younger brother to one of the couple) from being returned to his absentee father or abusive mother should his brother die?: http://nofo.blogspot.com/2008/11/proposition-hate.html . (He gets very ranty, but, considering what's at stake for his family, I can't blame him for being upset.)

SECULAR ARGUMENTS AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE:

1) Marriage is for children and gay couples can't reproduce.

Nobody is legally forced to declare an intention to have kids in order to get a marriage license. No infertile couples are forced to divorce or forbidden to marry. Couples with children are allowed to divorce. So, legally speaking, marriage is not "for children." Furthermore, gay couples can conceive via in vitro or surrogacy and, where it's not banned, can adopt. Meaning, gay marriage can be "for children" too. Therefore, children are a moot point in this debate.

2) Because gay couples can't reproduce together, nature is clearly against gay marriage.

Marriage was created by society, not nature. And, since nature created homosexuality (people are born gay), how could it "have a problem" with being gay? If you disagree, I welcome you to survey gays about whether their sexuality was inborn or a choice.

3) This is a states' rights issue, not one for the federal constitution.

Except that, according to the Full Faith and Credit Clause (Google it), all states must respect the "public acts, records, and judicial rulings" of other states. Meaning, if you're married in one state, that marriage is Constitutionally bound as valid in other states. This is not a states' rights issue. Come on, do you really expect people's marital status to flip flop depending on where they live? No heterosexual couple would stand for that, so why should gays?

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[Shavarnarak]

Here's a fourth one, that not many dare to ask, but that I think is a valid question too.

Anyone belonging to a minority;

Why is it okay to deny one minority (gay people) rights, if it is not okay to deny your minority rights?

I have to say I'm very disappointed in how many minorities came out in opposition to gay rights. Even though they themselves had to fight hard for their rights, they happily deny another group theirs.

[pmcrimson]

@Shavarnarak Any time people who fight for their rights deny others their rights, or engage in bigotry generally, it's hypocritical and sad. Unfortunately, being progressive in one area does not mean being progressive in all areas. Even back in the fight for women's right to vote, when black men won the vote before women did, quite a few came out as racist, demanding to know why an uneducated black man should be allowed more political power that a highly educated white woman.

[pmcrimson]

@Shavarnarak There were also bigotries based on class differences too. The fight for women's right to vote was, of course, noble and important, the hypocrisy of some shouldn't be used to disparage the integrity of all.

With that in mind, and being a person who prefers to regard people as individuals rather than as demographics, I'm not sure how to address what role race plays in attitudes toward gays. My goal is to appeal to people's reason and compassion, regardless of race, religion, etc...

[pmcrimson]

@Shavarnarak ... and, hopefully, get them to see that they have nothing to fear from gay rights. So while I think it's important to note the connection between all minorities fighting for their rights, I don't think it's useful to blanket blame minorities for the success of Prop 8 in California. Not only are there many, *many* homophobic white people throughout America, but statistically white people are the majority, so ...

[pmcrimson]

@Shavarnarak ... if white people as a group were so much more liberal than minorities, there'd be no problem passing legislation protecting gay rights.

The best strategy, imho, is to emphasize connection rather than discord. So, when it comes to race and gay rights, we need to remind minorities and women (as well as white men) that they have nothing to fear from gay marriage, gay adoption, etc, and that protecting minority civil rights also reinforces protection for their own civil rights.

[desertsongtv]

You are awesome. Thanks for stating these questions so very well. Too bad reality and rationality so seldom win in our present political climate.

[kenballer00]

Are you still busy?

[steponsteph]

Has anyone seen the show "Sister Wives"? What is the rationale of that sort of polygamist "union" being acceptable and not a marriage between two people of the same sex? This blows my mind. Thank you for this video. 

[steponsteph]

Has anyone seen the show "Sister Wives"? What is the rationale of that sort of polygamist "union" being acceptable and not a marriage between two people of the same sex? This blows my mind. Thank you for this video.

[G41MCombo]

love is one of the reason why people get married but it is always the only reason.People created this constitution at a time when gay marriage was never an issue. Being gay just disqualifies you to do anything with marriage, forget about even getting married.

[G41MCombo]

churches should patent the word marriage. Marriage is defined as the union of a man and a woman. Getting married has nothing to do with love and other bullshit.

[chandlerseals]

She is from Thailand and need to marry you rockmycity.info

[megagagnon1]

@Shavarnarak "Why is it okay to deny one minority (gay people) rights, if it is not okay to deny your minority rights?" Gays and straights have the same rights as far as marriage is concerned. Any man, straight or gay, has the right to marry any woman. Flipside for women. A gay man has the legal right to marry another gay - as long as she's a she. It's the same for everyone.