Free Will: Illusion...?

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Free will...do we REALLY have it? All scientific evidence points to 'No', yet it sure does FEEL like we're making our own decisions, like we really are in conscious control of ourselves.

How would you tell the difference between having free will and being part of pre-determined pattern? If that pattern included behavior that resembled decision-making and internal contemplation, how could we tell if we were truly in the command seat?

The universe appears to be mindlessly following a pattern, and we are part of the universe; in likelihood, our free will is only an illusion. And yet...

Music by Kevin MacLeod: http://incompetech.com/m/c/royalty-free/index.html
Used with permission

Outro suggested by: http://www.youtube.com/user/SisyphusRedeemed

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Have you ever heard the expression, "Everything happens for a reason"? People say this, I suppose, to comfort themselves when tragedy strikes; you almost never hear them say it when something GOOD happens. It's comforting to think that, sure, something bad happened, but it HAD to for the universe to take its natural course toward some intended end. Right?

But the truth of the matter is that "everything happens for a reason" is not a very accurate staetment. Everything happens because of something...not everything happens for a deliberate purpose. If you think that there is some invisible hand guiding us toward a destiny, I'd like you to prove that to me. And if you CAN'T prove it, then what makes you think it's even there?

As near as anybody has been able to determine, as far as anybody has been able to SHOW, the universe is NOT headed toward some ultimate goal...and that's true EVEN IF the universe is deterministic, predetermined.
A fractal is a kind of design that is based on a relatively simple equation, yet it appears to go on forever, to infinite levels of complexity. It is accurate to describe a fractal as pre-determined, yet that which generated it was a pattern, not blueprint. A fractal is not working toward a goal, but rather mindlessly following a set of tendencies essential to its nature. Similarly, the universe itself may be predetermined by how it began and its own set of tendencies WITHOUT working toward a specific goal; it may just be following a trend, not a script.

And we are part of the universe. We are part of that pattern. We may, in fact, have no free will at all. If you feel like you made a decision, if you dithered while making it, even THAT may be pre-determined, just you following your essential nature built into you by the pattern of the universe.

...or maybe not. Maybe free will DOES exist. But the question I have to ask is...how could you tell?

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[BionicDance]

@Lloyath Proud of it, baby!

[m37rax]

ok .. so because quantum physics proves randomness exist that means that everything is random ... everything that happened and will happen is purely random ... and we have to make decissions in random situations.. so that's who we are creatures that make decisions based on the curent situation wich is random ... => free will ... cause we decide what we do in that UNIQUE situation .. that is purely inpredictable even if it seems likely you never know for sure what will happen..

[Jayoinavation]

I cant hear over the belly..

[Hanahleia]

How can you tell, you ask?

Well, according to Michael Hoffman, you can tell by taking effective amounts of entheogens. We're talking Terence McKenna-recommended doses of something like psilocybin, for instance. What happens at the height of that experience, according to Hoffman, is incontrovertible evidence for "hard determinism" which he expounds all quite thoroughly at this website at vvvvvv.egodeath.com! If you're interested, it's definitely worth checking out or YT search Ramesh Balsekar!

[mdlittle5466]

@BionicDance My dear, naive and ever-so-egotistical young lady. I will be mindful to toss a tulip upon your grave when you, inadvertently, stumble across your 'kamakazi killswitch'.

[BionicDance]

@mdlittle5466 Who says the desire to self-terminate is a PLANNED thing? All it takes is the right--or wrong--stimuli; it has nothing to do with what "should" be. In a deterministic universe, "should" doesn't even exist!

I'm sorry, but you're simply not properly looking at how a deterministic universe would function; you keep imposing values upon it that would not exist if it were the case.

[mdlittle5466]

@BionicDance Intriguing...coersion to self-terminate due to external physical stimuli. While I'll refrain from obvious examples such as torture and willful neglect...what, in a 'physically-determistic world' could sponsor the desire to self-terminate?...because if you can come up with the answer to that, then you clearly have missed your calling and should be a counselor. Alas, the causes for suicide are as varied as the means to commit said act...you postulate generalization and that's invalid.

[BionicDance]

@mdlittle5466 I'm sorry, but that doesn't follow. Suicide could easily be deterministic.

[mdlittle5466]

@BionicDance That's dualistic thinking and disengenuous...neither worth appending regarding the current subject matter. It is clear that thought processes require the brain to be established - damage the brain, damage the thought process. However, individuals have be able to recover from head trauma with substantial portions of thier brain extracted, but still function as if nothing had been removed. There is, to some degree, determinism...but there is also freewill - case in point: suicide.

[BionicDance]

@mdlittle5466 And yet, that we CAN 'rewire' our brains still does not mean we are exerting free will to do so; that we've done so could STILL be a product of determinism.

My question to you is: how do we tell which it is?

[mdlittle5466]

@BionicDance Hmmm...now that's a valid query - how, in a 'physical-deterministic world' (...as you ascribe in your vid-clip...) can a brain comprised of bio-chemical reactions establish independent thought when thought, apparently, is derived from a physical manifestation - our brain. Fortunately neuroscientists have discovered that our thoughts are not entirely bound by the wirings of our neurons and dendrons. In truth, just by thinking about it...we can 'rewire' our own brains. Interesting...

[BionicDance]

@mdlittle5466 But I'm NOT saying for certain; at no point in this entire discussion have I claimed to be saying for certain. I'm speculating.

But I have to ask you...if it occurred in my mind, HOW did it occur? WHY did it occur? What MADE it occur? Hmm?

And I also never said ANYTHING about being coerced. I think you don't actually understand the subject matter, frankly; you seem to have some very strange notions of what I'm talking about that don't match reality.