Re: Why Abortion is Wrong-A Redux

Response to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEfxvTsWS6o

Category:

Education

Tags:

• jezuzfreek777
• Theamazingatheist

[truthadvocate]

What are choices & decisions? They're complex reactions to one's environment. Plants also react to their environment. They recoil from attack & turn toward the sun. Their reactions are more limited than ours, in other words they're less powerful. Relative to humans they're virtually powerless as is a fetus. Since we cannot see or hear a fetus, the fetus has no power to stop us from killing it. A baby however has the power to affect our emotions & thus defends itself from murder.

[JacobSpinney]

Wouldn't you agree that knowing that your fetus is feeling pain would affect our emotions as well?

[TheShibo]

I found this very interesting, but don't quite understand how the ability to make decisions and be accountable for them is morally relevant at all. I don't really understand how morality can even be viewed in an objective manner, as morality, by its very nature is purely subjective. As I understand it, morality comes from empathy and how your decisions affect you, yourself. Were I to be a pig, I would rather play in the grass than be mutilated. Were I to be a plant, I couldn't care either way.

[JacobSpinney]

Morality is a system of conduct and behavior. If that system is built upon logic itself, then it ceases to be subjective. Although "good" and "bad" are subjective terms, defining what is and what isn't a "universally preferable behavior" that is based on logic itself is not subjective.

[TheShibo]

That's nothing more than slapping a label on it, which is fine, but it's still just an arbitrary system based on collective opinion. No behavior can be truly universally preferable, but many are in effect (no one likes theft). I still don't understand how being responsible for a decision makes one more morally valuable. Hurting a child is considered worse than hurting an adult, though an adult is generally held more responsible for his actions.

[JacobSpinney]

Right. Is a child hurting an adult usually considered worse than an adult hurting an adult. No. But adults are more knowledgeable about the consequences of their actions. No behavior can be universally preferable . . . unless there is an agreed upon goal. If the goal is to live, then it would be universally preferable to breathe . . . and eat. If people wish to live in a society, then it would be universally preferable to respect each others property rights.

[gutbucket0]

may be im missing something did this dude just say that if we give human rights to a fetas that we half to give it to plants cuz there both not counches??

Sorry bout the spelling ;P

[truthadvocate]

For some, including me, yes. For others no. As a similar example, many people support the killing of animals without any emotional consequences. But if they had to witness the killing first hand, or do the killing themselves, many would change their behavior. This is why a third party kills the fetus while it's still in the mother.

[jacobspinneyebay]

I think you've confused what I said. I don't support abortion after the fetus has become sentient. Fighting back is indeed an undeniable feature of sentience.

[cymbaline90210]

Does the plant feel the pain of a machine with a tube sucking its brains out?

Does it have a brain in the first place?

Have you seen an abortion? Have you seen how the baby fights back? Does a plant fight back? First the leafs then its root? For the baby is first the limbs, and sometimes these get stuck in the machine so they use a scoop which cuts the limbs slower until another crashes the torso & then the head is pulled out. Does the plant fight back like the baby does?

[TheShibo]

Similarly, regarding the treatment of animals, I like to think that the question is not, "Can they think?" but "Can they suffer?" The ability to suffer is a product of consciousness, but consciousness is not itself morally relevant, at least as I can see it.