The Tale of the Slave - Robert Nozick

This is a remix, no copyright intended. "The Tale of the Slave" features in Robert Nozick's book, "Anarchy, State and Utopia". I would recommend re-watching the video to see clearly if Nozick's question is answerable.

Credit to TomWoodsTV for the voice-over in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6n1FL42to8

Read the original text:
http://www.duke.edu/web/philsociety/taleofslave.html

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[AdHavoc]

What is the piano music in the background?

[StatelessLiberty]

@AdHavoc

It's "Earth: The Pale Blue Dot (Instrumental)" by Michael Marantz

The short film it was used in can be found here: /watch?v=oY59wZdCDo0

I bought it from here: itunes (dot) apple (dot) com/us/album/earth-the-pale-bl­ue-dot-instrumental/id41474761­3?i=414747637&ign-mpt=uo%3D4

[DeoMachina]

Thought-provoking and concise. However I hold that slavery is inherent to any society, if I'm not enslaved by a state, then I'll be enslaved by something else, or enslaved by the collective consiousness. The only way to be truly free is to break away from mainstream society, something which the state allows you to do at the moment. With this in mind, what's the difference?

[StatelessLiberty]

@DeoMachina

Thank you! In my view, to be enslaved by "the collective consciousness" seems more of a metaphor of how social forces can exert psychological restraint rather than actual slavery in which people are the property of others. But the reason we interact with people is that we value the mutual benefits of cooperation, and cooperation does not require anyone to be a slave. You don't have to live away from society to be free.

[ReasonAndLiberty]

To those still unconvinced, consider looking up "George Ought To Help" online and watch the video.

This is not a utopian dream or intellectual fancy. This is real life. Real guns. Real property.

[jeffiek]

@KrugmanTheKing You're so far in denial, it appears that you can't even type the word GUN or JAIL. I can't find either in any of you posts.

[jeffiek]

@KrugmanTheKing Oh, you're in denial all right. I jumped in when you posted this:

"I would certainly agree that the State because of its centralized control over different fields of our lives is a coercive institutions, but it's one of the LEAST coercive in the so-called liberal democracies." (emphasis added)

I pointed out many ways the state uses GUNS and JAILS in the MOST coercive manner of all - VIOLENCE.

You have not refuted a single point.

[KrugmanTheKing]

@jeffiek

I'm not in denial... I told you where to look at and that the State was simply more than often the lesser of two evils. I concede upfront that it's coercive: I said it was less authoritarian, more democratic than corporations.

It's all down to how does the institution structure power into social relations... corporations are one way downward; there's at least some reciprocal features between a democratic State and the nation.

[jeffiek]

@KrugmanTheKing Get back to me when you can admit the existence of jails and guns and who uses them.

You are in denial. Take your sorry ignorant ass and get help.

[KrugmanTheKing]

@jeffiek

So long as the private property of the means of production exists, politics will be the shadow of business cast over our society, to paraphrase John Dewey: private interests will rule the country.

State control isn't much better... it's only better provided you have influence over the officials -- that is, if they are in some way accountable. The absolute best would for workers to directly own the places wherein which they work.

[KrugmanTheKing]

@jeffiek

programs, of starvation... Choosing your boss is essentially choosing your master, but it's not freedom since it again relies on surrendering your control over your work -- and very heavily so most of the time.

And you shouldn't say the State at all, but those who govern. If you didn't realize, policies only reflect social will when people organize; if not, they follow privileged interests through many means.

[KrugmanTheKing]

@jeffiek

We can say that the Supreme Soviet in the USSR was a totalitarian institution, but so can I say that corporations are because they show the same hierarchical structure.

The coercion they exercise is structural: having no means to control your production, you are left with as only option selling your production potential, that is to say, you ought to rent yourself, to sell your person.

They don't need guns, they just to threaten you of poverty, social stigmas or, if without social

[KrugmanTheKing]

@jeffiek

Actually we don't say system, we'd say regime -- that's the first mistake. The second one is that I was specifically qualify an institution using an adjective: I wasn't using totalitarianism, but totalitarian institution.

By definition, it means an authority-based social structure within which orders flow from above and wherein only those bellow are accountable to the authority -- the authority not being accountable to them. That's what is a totalitarian/authoritarian institution.

[jeffiek]

@KrugmanTheKing "Corporations are totalitarian"

The state needs useful idiots like you, ones that twist words and deceive.

Totalitarianism is a POLITICAL system. wikipedia. org/wiki/Totalitarianism

There is a real definition. Not made up crap.

They need idiots that IGNORE the weapons they use as backup. At best this qualifies you as IGNORANT ( wikipedia. org/wiki/Ignorance ), at worst an outright liar.

The doors at work are never locked to keep you IN. The doors on JAILS are.

[jeffiek]

@KrugmanTheKing Try telling the government to "fuck off" when the want your home ( see Kelo ), try telling them to "fuck off" when they want your ass in a rice paddy in Vietnam, try telling them to "fuck off" when they want you to pay for killing thousands of innocent children in Iraq.

I can, and have, told my "boss" to fuck off. Didn't get thrown in jail, didn't get shot.