On Jesus

www.thebarainitiative.com

A question exploring how we see Jesus as the foundation for our faith. Why does Jesus matter? What is the kingdom of God? Who is Jesus and what is his relationship to the Father?

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• On Jesus
• The Bara Initiative
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• Who was Jesus
• The Historical Jesus
• Jesus Christ
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• Jesus of Nazareth
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• Salvation

[PatGoltz]

To make someone a disciple means that they willingly submit to your teaching. Until a person is saved, they won't be a disciple. You can, and should, teach everyone. But salvation is of paramount importance. Not all will accept, but talking about anything that will not open their hearts to the Gospel is a waste of time. Giving them love and care, whether helping feed them or restore their health, opens hearts. Talking about the law is for showing them they are sinners.

[TheBaraInitiative]

@PatGoltz Pat, I think your Lutheran commitments are skewing the way you see what we're doing. First of all, while your church does what it does, remember, it does this in church. A place which people proactively come. A place dedicated to Christian fellowship, not necessarily world evangelism. Secondly, as Daniel points out, we believe that all of these discussions (whether on God's existence, culture, science, evil, etc.) point towards salvation at some level. All truth is God's truth.

[jontibloom]

Love the mood music - gives you a nice warm glow even though most of us know there was never any Jesus, at least not one as described in the Bible

[themsfightinwoids]

The contemporary record for Jesus is trivial and sparse. 2 or 3 passing mentions that MAY have been the guy, and nothing about miracles. Odd that stories of raising the dead and healing lepers only started decades after he dies, don't you think?? No reason to infer that this legendary "messiah" was any different from the dozens that preceded him in the other religious folklores of our ignorant ancestors.

[Dudeamis]

@TheBaraInitiative unfortunately his book uses actual evidence instead of a collection of myths.

[Dudeamis]

@TheBaraInitiative

actually it was more likely that the vast majority of people were illiterate. Kings didn't even know how to read or write.

[Dudeamis]

@TheBaraInitiative

Your statement flies in the face of the evidence. If a system of checks and balance were really in place there wouldn't be so many obvious changes made over time and in different locations. If oral tradition was so strong the divinity of Christ wouldn't have been so greatly contested, and the gospels would've matched. All your argument does is give credit to every culture that used oral tradition, which means that every myth passed down by oral tradition is just as strong.

[TheBaraInitiative]

@Dudeamis I have read Finkelstein's book. This is usually the book touted out by skeptics in claiming that archeology has proven scripture to be problematic. While there are some good things Finkelstein raises, there are also several areas which he has glossed over or misrepresented. Finkelstein's book should be read along with K.A. Kitchen's 'On the Reliability of the OT'

[PatGoltz]

Cultural issues, worldview issues, these are primarily of concern to the believer. Here, it is best to talk to the unbeliever. We can talk about why our worldview creates a more humane society. That would be directed at the unbeliever. But for the rest, it is the believers who are supposed to be salt.

[TheBaraInitiative]

@TheBaraInitiative One NT historian put it this way: the question is not why were the gospels written so late but why were they written at all? I think the key lies in the loss of an informal/controlled context (with the disorder brought by the Jewish War) and the loss of 'the living voice' which was actually seen as superior to written texts (see Papias). A good book on this is Bauckham's 'Jesus and the Eyewitnesses'

[TheBaraInitiative]

@Dudeamis But it doesn't. Without the sort of information recording techniques as the West has developed, a highly oral culture would develop other checks and balances for information recording and passing along traditions. The Bultmannian model has pretty much been discarded in place of Bailey's 'Informal/Controlled' model. Psychologists and Memory scientists have shown that within such a culture, the passing on of lengthy oral sources was probable...letters and books were the exception.

[PatGoltz]

I think this discussion is starting to demonstrate why we have such a different perspective. You speak as if my Lutheran commitments are a problem. I don't THINK so, or I wouldn't be where I am. Why is Jesus important? Because He saved us from our sins! You didn't even talk about that if I recall correctly. People need to know Jesus is God. They need to know He saved us from our sins. I focus on first things first. Yes, cultural issues are important, but this life is short. Put eternity first.