Nazism and Modernity - Response to ContraWagner pt 1.

Here are some of the ways in which I understand the connections... But don't listen to me, I believe we are still living in Nazi Germany...

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[denito9474]

true that. I think a pretty fair compromise was reached in this discussion

[Redjavaad]

To be fair the brutatlity of the crusades could certainly be described as "protro-modernist". One can certainly find historico-textual examples of "proto-racism" in contemporary sources. Perhaps a comprise position could be reached in this discussion.

[Redjavaad]

The problem with your argument is that it is entirely ahistorical. Youre argument regarding henry V doesnt prove the text is "nationalist". Rather, it simply proves that a nationalist reading is possible. Given that you're opponent contends that nationalism is a modernity, it should not suprise that a modern subject will take such a reading. There is no word "nationalism" in the Shakespearian corpus. Neither will you find any word ending with the prefix "ism" or "ist".

[denito9474]

anyway, in the end, how can I argue with Bowie?

No, I agree, it is the same old thing. But the modern(ist) version of it is by far the most horrifying version history has ever produced. On so many dimensions, and at the least in scale it is the worst ever.

Modernity = lots of power. Therefore when people do the same old thing, using the tools and ideas of modernity, its gonna be really really bad, holocaust = an example of this.

p.s. how do you define modernity?

[denito9474]

Gellner? His claim is that _nations_ didn't exist until the modern era. The people he argues against claim that nations are natural or at least have existed for thousands of years. But both groups agree that _nationalism_ is a modern phenomenon.

[denito9474]

I fell like your not really hearing what I'm saying. "There is nothing "modern" in mass murder." I specifically said that I agree with this. I argued that it was the way in which the mass murder was carried out.

also, you don't consider the French Revolution as part of modernity?

[denito9474]

I don't understand what its got to do with straw man arguments.

The nazis exploited existing flaw - agreed. But that's irrelevant to whether or not they were modernists and/or a product of modernity.

Were the Nazis some pre-modern form of racists with modernist excuses thrown on top to authenticate it, or were those excuses their real beliefs? I don't know if we can answer this, but I'm willing to settle for your version, that's enough for me.

[ascolti]

Plus your "Nationalism is a modern phenomenon", proposed by Ernest Gellner and fellow proponents falls over somewhat when you consider the actions of the Chin dynasty in China or the efforts of the Flemish to repulse French incursion and so on and so forth.

What is it David Bowie once same "Same old thing, in brand new drag"? You'd better believe it.

[ascolti]

"I'm sorry, I went to click reply but accidentally clicked removed for your previous comment" - No problem, it's easily done.

Nationalism is modern? Odd then that Shakespeare should use phrases like "Cry 'God for Harry, England and Saint George!" All from Henry V. The play goes on in Nationalistic further to portray England in glowing terms for all free men. Therefore overstepping any idea it is purely a piece of Patriotism.

[ascolti]

"Essentially the principles of the industrial revolution applied to murder." Or in the Reign of Terror the use of the guillotine during the French revolution (15k-40k victims).

Or the systematic torture techniques of the Spanish during the Inquisition.... all documented in horrific detail.

There is nothing "modern" in mass murder. And the term "modern" doesn't equate to "modernist" or "modernism" no matter how many times you try to make it so.