Jan Sleutels - Greek Zombies (Part 2 of 3)

"Greek Zombies" a lecture given by Professor of Philosophy Jan Sleutels (Leiden University) at the 2006 Julian Jaynes Conference on Consciousness at the University of Prince Edward Island. For more see Prof. Sleutels' chapter in the book "Reflections on the Dawn of Consciousness: Julian Jaynes's Bicameral Mind Theory Revisited."

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• Jaynes
• consciousness
• bicameral
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[julianjaynessociety]

This is an excellent question. We have to remember that these societies were strict hierarchies. Major commands that would guide the action of major portions of the society were most likely hallucinated by the god-king and then communicated verbally down the hierarchy. Individuals most likely hallucinated commands that were either the repetitions of the leadership or dealt with more mundane day-to-day issues.

[Fuliginosus]

My obstacle to understanding Jaynes stems from my inability to grasp how all of the voices from the right side of the brain (the god voices of ancient cultures) would be coordinated within a civilization. I would have expected some of the people to hear the God-King say 'build a pyramid,' while others hear the voice say 'build a ship.'

[somor98]

Fuckin exellent!

[Rizzox]

@macedonianphalanx Your complete ignorance of the actual state of schizophrenia is funny. Also, as far as how they could be organized I think we need to look no further than Joan of Arc.

[pearlsfortheswines]

You can talk about consciousness as a cultural phenomenon, like, is it true that chinese are less consciouss because of their communist background and the fact they missed the whole post WWII period of capitalist consumerism promoting the individual (watch 'Century Of The Self''). The average chinese seem to have less desire for individual expression, although that might be changing now to some level, it is interesting to suggest that this runs parallel with a diminished sense of consciousness

[wrb1957]

Doesn't the impact of "social" neuroplasticity come into play in the development of a group's or an individual's conscious, as well? Just thinking out loud, with this next one: How does anthropology's concept of The Global Brain come into play, here?

[macedonianphalanx]

continued

Maybe this explains some collapses that occurred apparently unexplained, eg. old Egyptian dynasties, Minoans etc etc. Could bicamerality re-emerge? If so what could trigger that? Thanks.

[macedonianphalanx]

Thank you. Much obliged. I heard Julian Jaynes wanted to publish a second book The Consequences of Consciousness, but didnt finish it. Is there a chance the book can be published by his society based on materials left behind by him? I think that the breakdown of bicamerality would necessarily lead to the collapse of socities pasing through this stage, until a coping mechanism and experience would permit societies to reform under a conscious mode.

[julianjaynessociety]

1. The oldest parts of the earliests texts (i.e. the Iliad) lack evidence of introspection; decisions are made based on voices.

2. Humans evolved as social animals that form strict hierarchies and follow an alpha male; their hallucinations were likely reinterations of the verbal commands of the god-king on major issues.

3. The bicameral mind probably evolved along with language, in tribes (before the first cities).

4. No, consciousness was a later development based on metaphorical language.

[democraticfuture]

Wow. Im impressed by this theory. It explains so muuch. I have 4 questions: 1) How do we know they were not schizophrenics, meaning how do we know they were not partially conscious but they were hearing voices?

2) why were they obeying their king and not their own hallucinated voices?

3) were they always bicameral or only since cities appeared?

4) before bicamerality were they conscious?

Much appreciate your input. Im still struggling to comprehend this amazing theory. Thanks

[julianjaynessociety]

I already answered this above. In short, they spoke to each other. Their own hallucinations from their personal god (usually in the form an idol) probably only directed their personal activities. Modern schizophrenia is only a partial relapse to the bicameral mind in a fully conscious person. Furthermore, they are not part of a hierarchical theocracy so they have no one directing them.

[macedonianphalanx]

Good point. Since skizophrenics are the closest to being bicameral today how can a society of skyzoids function? How can skizos be organised in construction projects, battles etc? I wonder how their various hallucinations could be coordinated toward a common goal so their society doesnt break down in utter anarchy. How could this be achieved?