#30 Ideal Cylinder Proof COP 2.0

More out than in- Is it possible?
Here's the BEEF!
Amaze your friends & stump the naysayers.
This ideal exercise demonstrates COP 2.0.
(today's secret word is DUCT TAPE)

Category:

Science & Technology

Tags:

• PFN
• PulseFuelNerd
• D3
• Ideal
• Cylinder
• Proof
• COP
• 2.0
• Duct
• Tape

[PulseFuelNerd]

What is really going to spin your head, is when you begin to study sympathetically connecting symbiotic systems with a combined COP greater than 1.0. Say like a heat pump system COP 11.0, with a TEM system COP(.1). Or a heat pump system COP 5.0 with a stirling generator system COP (.25).... okay i'll stop here before i get branded as heretic.... Hint: The combined COP is figured by directly multiplying the COP's together!

[PulseFuelNerd]

This exercise uses only expansion and contraction of a gas in gaseous state: we are bound to just under 2.0 COP. When we take off the kid gloves and include the ability to expand and contract through evaporation and condensation, COP goes hyper. Carnot in his limited scope, puts the theoretical max at COP 200. There is a whole realm of detail, data, math, and observation to explore and record. New formulas must and will be developed to account for this uncharted area of study and focus.

[PinellasPatriot]

If your perfect generator is able to harness "1x" energy upon the upward stroke, that would imply that there is exactly zero energy available in order to lift the piston. In other words, your generator can only harness a maximum of "1x - Eg" where Eg is the amount of energy necessary to overcome the gravitational force upon the piston. The force used to overcome the gravitational force converts kinetic energy due to gas expansion into gravitational potential energy. COP = 1.0

[PulseFuelNerd]

@PinellasPatriot

You are technically correct, but only on one aspect, However overall, you are missing the point. In this IDEAL exercise 2.0 COP is actually a limit and not actually attainable. Brake horsepower at 2.0 COP would stall the piston. Anything approaching but not including 2.0 COP would be valid (I.E. 1.999 COP). As long as the piston actually moves! The part your missing, and the point of the vid.... is the portion from 1.0 COP upwards towards 2.0 COP.

[PinellasPatriot]

@PulseFuelNerd Are you saying the following?: If the first expansion stroke is adiabatic (no heat out of the system) then the 1x input heat energy is converted into 1x work due to gas expansion. At top dead center, the cylinder stops and the second process begins in which, ideally, 100% of remaining heat energy is bled off to the environment, thus converting this "vacuum stroke" into an additional 1x work.

I just want to get on the same page for the sake of discussion.

[PulseFuelNerd]

@PinellasPatriot

Ya, close enough for now, what's up?

[Fuzzy3676]

The theory is there but the real world application seems to be unrealistic. The hot air would produce upward force, but to create a downward pull it would seem that the air inside the cylinder would have to be colder than the air outside, otherwise, it becomes static.

[PinellasPatriot]

@PinellasPatriot In your second cycle (just like the first), when all of the internal energy is converted to mechanical in the second expansion stroke, the temperature after the fact will return to its base state before heat addition: that of the environment. In this case, there is no mechanism to power the return stroke. This gets me to my point (finally): You could achieve COP = 2.0 (under ideal circumstances) in a transient condition but not at steady state.

[PinellasPatriot]

@PinellasPatriot As such, if the temperature of the environment happens to still be less than that of the gas within the cylinder, then some heat transfer to the environment could still occur, thus allowing a return stroke and C.O.P. greater than 1.0. Where I take issue, however, is that this is just a transient condition. My point is as follows: after the return stroke (in ideal case of C.O.P. = 2.0) the temperature within the cylinder will have equalized with the environment.

[PinellasPatriot]

@PulseFuelNerd Alright, well assuming we are on the same page (and if I'm off, please direct me as necessary), this still seems problematic. When the piston moves up due to expansion, in an ideal case, 100% of that heat energy is converted into mechanical energy. Let, for example, the only limitation on the movement of the piston be the external pressure. This would imply that the pressure within the cylinder has equalized with that of the environment (but not necessarily the temperature).

[randommagnum]

@d3adp001 Wow...this is really turning into a mind-numbing discussion.

I'm going to see about making a video to respond to what you are saying here...maybe that way you'll be more willing to hear me out.

Stand by...

[d3adp001]

Your not really participating in a discussion and not contributing, your simply spitting out what was put into your mouth be someone else. If you have an understanding, then explain it, but to be antagonistic is a waste of your time. Contribute productively or shut up.

[d3adp001]

@d3adp001 So either the max energy that can be extracted is 1/2 for the expansion cycle and 1/2 for the condensation cycle, or its 1 for expansion cycle and potential for 1 on the condensation cycle, Now if you want to say that only the difference between environmental state and excited state can be extracted on the expansion and the environmental can be extracted on the condensation then thats fine. But note one thing, you didnt say it I did, because I am already aware of the possiblities.

[d3adp001]

@d3adp001 IF no heat leaves the system then the piston would move due to the expansion of gas. IF the heat never left the system the piston would stay in this excited state. The work performed would be equal to the heat put in less losses which there are none so 1 unit in 1 unit out. Now allow the heat to leave the system. The piston will revert back to original state. the energy comes into the system from the environment. which is what pushes the piston back to rest position.

[d3adp001]

@randommagnum First off you neglect the first premise, IDEAL, second off heat pumps are in fact a heat system in which the exchanged must travel through the engine, which is the same as what is occuring in the carnot, yes the difference is one is turned and one is being turned, but you neglect to observe and explain the environmental effect. the work done after heat leaves is not stored energy its a return to base state