Francis Schaeffer February 21, 1982 (Part 1)

READ THIS FIRST: In decline of all civilizations we first see a war against the freedom of ideas. Discussion is limited or prohibited. Speakers at universities are shouted down. Corruption takes over city governments and towns as dishonesty and corruption expands. Small stores have to shut down because none are honest enough to run a cash register. The stock of stores is looted by employees and pilfered and shop owners flee. Stock markets are rife with manipulation and the plague of dishonesty. We have learned that sound and lasting civilized ideas are built upon very rare and special foundations. Frances Schaeffer is one guy who has sparked my own thinking and study. He has influenced my writing and prison ministry greatly. Humans must be convinced intellectually, historically and reasonably as well as through the Biblical teachings. Francis Shaeffer has helped all of us wade through this vast propaganda sewer to approach fundamental questions, one of which is: "Why do nations and empires decline?"

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[DeBunker7]

Excellent insight MrJohnny.

[awakenedinseattle]

I used to be an evangelical Christian -- even attended an evangelical Christian seminary for a number of years.

During that time, I found evangelical Christians to be much like everyone else, unfortunately -- in that they listened to the evidence they WANTED to hear, and closed their ears to all other evidence.

This is tragic, in my opinion. And it's tragic because the truth is so much bigger -- and more beautiful -- than can be contained in one philosophy/theology.

[DeBunker7]

That's been the case with many of my friends, and very close friends who loved me and nurtured me in my young years and then gave up on Christ. My feeling is you become what you hang out with. What you put around you...you become. Influence is powerful. I always wondered how people could stay on fire for Jesus for 50 years like some pastors do. It was only until I sought out and read some of their stuff and hung out with some did I begin to see a key in all this. Matt 16:17-19

[BenAliGtor]

I used to deeply admire this man. However, the more I study his words and how they have been co-opted by Anti-Intellectual Right, the more I see an apologetic for America as a Reconstructionist Theocracy. The danger is that in the end such visions of 'what God deems for America' and the 'biblical principles' upon which they supposedly rest are as arbitrary in their premises as the 'humanism' Schaeffer deplores.

[DeBunker7]

Sorry, I don't get what you are saying. What does "visions of what God 'deemed' have to do with this? Or words that have been "co-opted"? I like his contrasting of truth vs. error and I realize that is a sensitive issue with nonbelievers. Thanks for the comment!

[ntwrightsmom]

What group is he speaking to?

[DeBunker7]

I think its Regents U, but not positive.

[readchesterton]

26 years later proves that Francis was a watchman on the wall...

[CeciliaLind]

Francis Shaeffer was not an evangelical wacko! He was a wise man, and you should value what he has to say.

[MrJohnnyBulldawg]

There are geniuses on both sides of the Isle. Newton, Augustine, Acquinas, Erasmus, Pascal, Bach, and many others, exhibit the highest level of understanding. Likewise, humanistic/materialists like Kant, Descarte, Marx, Nietzsche, Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Fuocalt, Hitchens, Dawkins, and many others, have the same ability to reason, leaving without excuse when they reject the simple Gospel message. Its about taking responsibility for our idolatry and receiving mercy or blaming God for tempting us.

[eric80510]

@MrJohnnyBulldawg I was thinking along the same lines but you put it into words better than I could. It is refreshing to read comments like yours my friend. God bless. Way too many trolls out there you know? Attecking the individual instead of the message I see in politics especially from the left. Do you left its because the democrat base is not very intelligent that they get away with it? anyway take care.

[MrJohnnyBulldawg]

The reason why it is so provocative for someone like Schaeffer to confront the culture is that he speaks cogently. He is kind, and yet uncompromising. He is tolerant of weakness (as the Bible is) but intolerant of idolatry and self determination. He is unassailable in his sincerity and logic. Spirit and soul are confronted by the intellectualism which cynics hold sacred being debunked by Truth. They can only attack the individual, as the idea is too much to confront by their own standards.

[napoleon117]

@yoyosweetiepie ...At that point we can sit down and have a conversation on what kind of society we want to live in. What are the consequences of not punishing things like theft and murder? Well the odds of anyone being able to go freely about their lives is greatly diminished. However if a person thinks a command comes from God, how do we change his mind? If he's convinced enough we can't and that is a dangerous thing.

[napoleon117]

@yoyosweetiepie We are conscious beings with a set of inherently positive and negative mental states. If you asked someone in horrendous amounts of pain what their basis was for describing the sensation as "bad" I hope we could all agree that would be retarded. All it takes to be moral is to come to the realization that our actions affect one another and if we're going to enjoy our time on this planet together we have to respect each others desires and limit the fulfillment of our own....

[napoleon117]

@yoyosweetiepie The mentality that we must have a higher power to obey in order to be moral deeply disturbs me. It effectively stops any conversation about what we should do as a society. No matter how horrible the consequences of an action if someone had internalized this mentality nothing would convince him to change his mind. Th answer to your question, "And how can you say that this or that is good for me if I do not believe it is?" is by having a conversation...(continued in next)

[napoleon117]

@yoyosweetiepie I agree that living in a world where we love one another is great. The benefits of living in such a world is evident simply by comparing societies built on those ideals (caring for each other) versus those that are not. The fact (true or not) that God commanded you to do this does not add anything to the equation, it is just his opinion. If God does exist he could be right about morality. But the fact that he commands something does not make it right.

[napoleon117]

@yoyosweetiepie Your African example was very random. sub Saharan Africa is being overrun by religious beliefs, country after country is passing terrifying bills against things like homosexual activity with prison time and execution as punishment in response to recent efforts by evangelical groups (from America) to spread their ideas there. Of course that wasn't there intention but they are so convinced their beliefs are good they could not conceive of negative consequences of spreading them.

[napoleon117]

@yoyosweetiepie Your also oversimplifying social programs. It's true there are plenty of abuses and the system is in desperate need of overhaul but there is no denying the elimination of poverty among the elderly and the decrease in the percentage of people below the poverty line. There is also nothing inherently humanist about welfare programs. As a humanist if I was convinced that getting rid of them would benefit our country, than I would naturally support that.