Couperin, Fr Messe à l' usage des Convents Offertoire sur les Grands Jeux

It is definitely established that, due to the 1682 "Cérémonial des églises de Paris". the organists by then in charge of the parisian Great Instruments had to fit their genius in standardized musical motives and atmosphere. It was only during the "Offertoire" that those great musicians were allowed to extemporize and demonstrate their true inspiration and full technique, free from strictly mandatory limits. The "Ceremoniae parisiense ad usum omnium collegiarum, parochialium et aliarum urbis et diocesis parisiensis" set severe rules concerning the interventions of the organist, its when, as well as the musical criation itself. So, even in the Second Mass, quite far from the strictness of the first one, the "Offertoire" is a break in the submission to those rules. One can judge by the results...

Category:

Music

Tags:

• French
• Baroque
• Organ
• Music
• Couperin
• Messe
• Convents
• Couvents
• Gilberto
• Guarino
• Offertoire
• Grands
• Jeux

[loic56250]

Merci Gilberto pour cette messe de Couperin si bien jouée. Dommage que François Couperin n'ai pas composé plus pour l'orgue. Peut être pourriez vous nous jouer également du Louis Couperin,...; merci c'est magnifique!

[GilbertoGuarino]

@frenchiecocorico1 I did... After all, I wrote it. And I know exactly what I wrote. Read it again, and you shall understand that you mada a mistanken interpretation of my text.

[GilbertoGuarino]

@frenchiecocorico1 Here we go again... No, no... Finally, you seem to have understood what I wrote. Thank you very much for having done your bert!

[frenchiecocorico1]

@GilbertoGuarino I- You must absolutely read attentively what you wrote. You've wrote a comment about Couperin 's CONVENT mass.You established first a relationship between this work and the  "Cérémonial des églises de Paris" about office rules in the Paris PARISH churches while it doesn't concerned in any point this case. Then as this relationship was true, you followed on the composition rules of the Paris parish church masses between the compulsory and free movements.

[frenchiecocorico1]

@GilbertoGuarino II- Finally, you concluded the Convent mass Offertoire is more free inventive than the Parish mass one. Is it abnormal or astonishing when the two masses didn't obey to the same rules?

[GilbertoGuarino]

@frenchiecocorico1 Di I?.. And it seems that you discovered the gunpowder. I never said the "Cérémonial des églises de Paris" (1682) was not a very restrictive case. On the contrary. Please, read carefully what I wrote.

[frenchiecocorico1]

@GilbertoGuarino I- It seems you discover "America". The Convent uses even in Paris didn't depend on the secular rules decided by Paris bishop but by their own house rules. Some like benectines prohibited any musical form during the office, some like cistercian admitted only gregorian musics and some others, mainly the worldliers, used secular music to embellish offices. The "Ceremonial des églises de Paris" from 1682 constituted a very restrictive case.

[frenchiecocorico1]

@GilbertoGuarino II- Commonly in the provincial parish churches only gregorian songs were used and very few of them had organ or choir but Cathedrals, Basilicas and Collegiate church.

It is untrue to assert organists of the period only devellopped their "true inspiration and full technique" during the free inventive movement like "Offertoire". At the opposite their genius found the field of a powerfull technique in the compulsory theme movements more than in free ones.

[GilbertoGuarino]

@frenchiecocorico1

Did I say it was?... By the way, I wrote: "(...) the organists by then in charge of the Parisian Instruments". And: "So, even in the Second Mass, quite far from the strictness of the first one, etc..." To me it is impossible not to note the special freedom conveyed by the "Offrertoire", "even in the Second Mass"... "which is far from the strictness os the firs one".

[frenchiecocorico1]

This is not a novelty for french people. We know that from 1682. Above all, in this case you are completly wrong because it is an organ mass for the convent and not a parish church's. Though, each religious order had its specific mass ceremonial which never depended on the common parish ceremonial rules. What you told about was only valid in Paris parish church. In other part of the kingdom rules were differents (i.e in Lyon music and instruments were prohibited during the mass).