Is Jesus Jehovah? (Rebuttal to MSM1876)

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• Jehovah
• MSM1876
• Christology
• Divine Agency
• Jewish Agency

[TheGenuineChristian]

Oh Ivan. I didn't even know you have a debate with that heretic. I'll just watch your side of it. I'm pretty sure I already have seen all the Trinitarian arguments. =P

[IvanDefendingTruth]

@TheGenuineChristian Yeah, lol ... I think it was the time when you went on a hiatus from YouTube!

[Castillodearagon]

@thephosphatemine Lactantius [240-320]: "...God, ...before approaching the remarkable task of making this world, created a holy and incorruptible spirit whom he called his son and though he later created countless others, whom we call angels, this, his First-Born, was the only one he distinguished with a name of divine significance, presumably because he had his Father's qualities of power and supremacy..." - (Divinae institutiones 4.6.1)

[Castillodearagon]

@thephosphatemine Arius believed that the holy spirit was created by the Son [If im not wrong]. That's why I said that Origen did not know the concept of "Arianism"... But my point was that he nor any of the early christians believed on a "tri{3}nity".

[Castillodearagon]

@thephosphatemine This is what Origen actually wrote. Origen [185-254 C.E.]: "...(Contra Celsum L. V. Page 257) "For the Son of God, the firstborn of every creature, altho' he seems to have been incarnate but very lately, yet therefore he is not a late Being; for the sacred Oracles own him to be the Ancientest of all Creatures..." - (William Whiston Primative Christianity Revived Vol 4 Page 154)

[Castillodearagon]

@thephosphatemine Epiphanius-on-Origen [310-403 C.E.]: “...is the text of every word, to show you, scholarly hearer, that Origen plainly held that the Son of God is a creature... But since I have found many instances that Origen wrongly distingushes between the Only-begotten God and the Father's Godhead and essense” - (Page 136-137; SECTION IV. 5:9; The Panarion of Epiphanius of Salamis, Volume 2 By Frank Williams.) Seems like this trinitarian disagrees, and this is not the only one.

[Castillodearagon]

@thephosphatemine Origen viewed all spiritual beings, both what he calls theoi and human souls, as eternal beings. Origen’s doctrine countered the assertion that the Son must be later than the Father. Creation for Origen applies to everything that comes from God as eternal. But one wonders to what extent he subordinates the Son to the Father. Was the son a creature for Orgien or not? Let's see what Epiphanius had to say about Origen in the Fourth Century:

[IvanDefendingTruth]

@thephosphatemine Origen argued that Jesus and the Father were different Gods in John 1:1...

[Castillodearagon]

@thephosphatemine I'm not sure if Origen knew the concept of "arianism" at his time, but it seems that he just wrote what early christians believed around the Fist and Second Century like Aristedes, II Clement, Papias, Policarp, Hermas, Justin Martyr, Theophilus, Clement of Rome, etc.