Re: Paschal's Wager

For a translation of Pascal's original writings, see http://www.classicallibrary.org/pascal/pensees/pensees03.htm - specifically section 233.

The Wager is bullshit, and it's bullshit for a lot of reasons. Some of those reasons are more interesting than others.

One of the more interesting things that are wrong with the Wager is that it has an unstated assumption that belief is a choice.

First of all, I think that's wrong. My belief that the sky is blue isn't a choice - that is thrust upon me by observing the sky. Similarly, my atheism isn't a choice either.

Contrast this against the idea of belief as a choice. How sincere is a belief that is 'chosen' when compared against a belief that is involuntary.

The reason this is interesting is because when someone presents Pascal's Wager as if it was persuasive, it reveals that they must accept on some level the premise that belief can be chosen. Which to me begs the question of how sincere their theism really is.

Does such a person *truly* believe, the way that I believe the sky is blue?

Or are they just choosing to pretend to themselves and the people around them that they believe?

I find this is a more interesting objection to the Wager - or at least, that it gets some more interesting responses from the people who present it.

Just thought I'd throw this out there, see if people thought it was interesting.

Anyone watching, feel free to let me know what you think. I'm interested.

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[freetaught]

Interestingly, I did not discover your video in my mail box. I decided to type in "Paschals Wager" just to see how my video was doing relative to others'. It was quite serendipitous that I found yours, especially since you just recently posted it.

[UbiquitousChe]

@freetaught

Woah... I just came in to respond, and all the comment interface has changed... Weird. Maintenance might have something to do with why you didn't get any comment in your inbox.

Anyway, I didn't even intend this video to be constructive criticism, exactly - just that your video got me thinking, so I figured I'd respond. I'm a bit disappointed you'd already thought of it, to tell the truth. ^_^

[MisappliedRhetoric]

Three stars?

If you're the same guy whose comments I remember running across some months ago, I'm sure I'd be prepared to ti give you five -if only I could hear a damn word you're saying.

I can make out just enough to discern a New Zealand accent.

[UbiquitousChe]

There we go - a better response is up.

[freetaught]

I do like this video and always appreciate constructive criticism. I did actually address the issue which you've raised, though not in my video--just a slight dig in my description box, which is short. I addressed Paschal's argument in my video as I felt it was presented. I understood that he was saying that he knows many cannot believe, but that we can be conditioned through persistant participation in religious rituals.I'm not sure if I disagree with him on this. I appreciate your speaking up!

[BattleshipTx]

"I still consider that a sincere belief about the state of reality isn't a choice"

All the examples you use about "state of reality" is where you already know the answer, where you have a definite opinion. You see the thousand-foot drop below, so you cannot make yourself believe it is not there. I can't get you to focus on a situation where you don't know what answer is correct, where you don't know what is below you. The Wager is useful then, not to change an already formed opinion of reality.

[UbiquitousChe]

I still consider that a sincere belief about the state of reality isn't a choice, and I feel I have provided sound reasoning to that effect.

I have found your argument unpersuasive, and have given reasons and counter-examples as to why that is the case.

As your only response to my rebuttals has been dismissal as opposed to engagement, I've come to the conclusion that there's little more we have to offer one another in this discussion.

I invite you to take the last word, if you'll have it.

[UbiquitousChe]

I'm sorry, Battleship. I feel I have engaged with your points and met you fairly.

I've tried to back up my objections with logic and examples - I've even stuck to your own analogies in an attempt to keep communication even and open.

But you seem unable or unwilling to engage with any of the points I am making beyond simple dismissal and a restatement of the exact same points you made the time before.

[BattleshipTx]

You can easily see this when you talk about a belief that is less controversial. You come to the stream and tree trunk. You decide whether you believe you can make it across or not. Say you decide you can. That's your belief, you think you can make it across. Your belief is obviously the result of your decision after examining the information available to you. Guess what, that's the same with every belief. including what you believe about the existence or non-existence of God.

[BattleshipTx]

"claims to believe in God, but they have *chosen* to believe ... belief really sincere?"

Everyone who believes has decided (chosen) to believe. Everyone who is atheist has decided (chosen) not to believe. Belief is a decision. You decide to believe or you don't. Everyone who hasn't decided (chosen) either just hasn't considered the question, or is trying but hasn't made up their mind what they believe. You are using "believe" in a weird way, every belief is a result of a decision or choice.

[UbiquitousChe]

As I see it, the Wager cannot possibly persuade anyone towards sincere belief. It can only persuade someone towards self-deception regarding the true state of their beliefs.

If the reader is a belier that finds the Wager persuasive... Then you may want to consider your own beliefs more closely. Do you BELIEVE - or do you 'believe'. Is your belief sincere, or the manufactured result of your choice?

I don't want an answer myself - it's just something I consider to be worth thinking about.