Christian Apologetics - Methodological Problems

oral tradition; special pleading

Category:

People & Blogs

Tags:

• christian
• apologetics
• oral
• tradition
• reliability
• special
• pleading
• methodological
• problems

[tzephon]

Where in the Bible is there conflicting testimony which cannot be reconciled? What in the Bible is contradictory? And what is a neutral observer?

[epaminodas]

@tzephon good questions - depending on your epistemology you see contradictions or you don't; however there is one instance that clearly doesn't make sense to me - the bible says God is love, that love is not jealous and yet another verse says that God is a jealous God. i don't see how you can say that's not a contradiction

[tzephon]

@epaminodas And what is a neutral observer?

[epaminodas]

@tzephon i'll go with the classical definition - someone who has no vested interest in the matter before him and willing to consider both pro and con arguments on the matter

[tzephon]

@epaminodas And who is that person in relation to Christianity? It isn't someone such as an atheist. They actually have have a vested interest in the Bible not being true. And that should go for every worldview outside of Christianity. The only exception I can think of is someone who is completely ignorant of the Christian worldview. However, once they gain sufficient knowledge to assess the truth of scripture they've lost that neutrality that was occasioned by ignorance.

[epaminodas]

@tzephon i'm not sure that's necessarily true - for example look at Paul - he was aware of christianity, its tenets etc yet remained unconverted until he had a revelation. why isn't everyone granted such visions/miracles/revelations? - again if you're a calvinist this isn't a problem due to election but all other denominations do

[imperator332]

@tzephon

1. Does the Zondervan KJV Study Bible offer a source? Josephus? Res Gestae? Tacitus? Some inscription or coin? I don't own a copy.

2. Josephus. Book 18, Ch. 1.

And, well.....Luke. Unless Luke used Quirinius' name when he wasn't the governor, which is a very weird thing to do.

[tzephon]

@imperator332

1. Zondervan KJV Study Bible p1448

2. Who called it the Quirinius Census?

[imperator332]

@tzephon

1. Really? I can't seem to find any information about that, could you point me to where you found that out? You can pm me if it's easier that way.

2. Romans kept pretty good records, and Josephus helps us confirm the date for his administration of the province as well as the census. Besides which, it would be silly to name it the Quirinius Census then, and Luke was a better historian than that. Moreover, I don't think he would have had the imperium unless he was the gov.

[tzephon]

@imperator332 He was in Judea at those times and the Greek doesn't say he was THE governor, does it? It says he governed.

[imperator332]

@tzephon

"More specifically he is listed as having been over the legions in Judea from 6-4 BC and 6-9 AD (zondervan)"

Come to think of it, that really doesn't make much sense. Varus was governor of Syria at this time, and Judaea was not yet a province. Moreover, wasn't Quirinius supposed to be in Galatia at this time?

[imperator332]

@tzephon

" "ἡγεμονεύοντος" That should be obvious to you; look at the grammar" What about it?

" More specifically he is listed as having been over the legions in Judea from 6-4 BC and 6-9 AD (zondervan)" Where is this listed?

" "ἡγεμονεύοντος" is a verb, not a noun." Well aware.

I'm not sure what you've written actually resolves the problem. Could you elaborate?

[tzephon]

@imperator332 "ἡγεμονεύοντος" That should be obvious to you; look at the grammar. "as early as 12 BC." Irrelevant." Relevant - he was serving in Syria. More specifically he is listed as having been over the legions in Judea from 6-4 BC and 6-9 AD (zondervan) Luke also uses the term "hegemon". This places him at the level of propreator or or Procurator like pilot. The term for a Roman Governor would be legatus. "ἡγεμονεύοντος" is a verb, not a noun.

[imperator332]

According to Raymond Brown:

"this information is dubious on almost every score, despite the elaborate attempts by scholars to defend Lucan accuracy."

Most scholars chalk this up to Luke either making a mistake, or embellishing the story for other purposes.

I'm not saying your interpretation and attempt to reconcile the accounts is wrong, but I would like some explanation for why you've interpreted in this way.

[imperator332]

@tzephon

"a census was held on seven year intervals which would include the years 11-10 BC, 4-3 BC, and 4-5 AD 11-12 AD.". We have records for all Censuses held under Augustus.

" AConsider "ἡγεμονεύοντος". This is saying the first time he governed Syria". That's a tenuous conclusion. Is there an explanation as to how they reached this?

" place him as a consul as early as 12 BC." Irrelevant.

"Also consider "πρώτη" which could read 'prior'.". Also tenuous. Explanation?