Jesus Written About in Secular History

Some of the examples of secular and Jewish historical writings (some quite anti-Christian in tone) known for years by scholars. Below is the Josephus excerpt about Jesus from the much older, Arab-Christian source. "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct
was good, and was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the
Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned
him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples
did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared
to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive,
accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets
have recounted wonders." One of the most important historical sources on early Judaism that is
still in existence today comes from the writings of Flavius Josephus.
Josephus was born around A.D. 37 (slightly after Jesus' death), and died
around 100 A.D. He was the son of a Judaean priest and was educated as a
Pharisee.

When the revolt of 66 A.D. first broke out, Josephus was the commander-in-chief of the Northern Jewish resistance against the Romans. After being captured
by the Romans, he determined that any further resistance was hopeless, and
from that point on, sided with the Romans. In 70 A.D. after serving as the
interpreter to Titus during the final siege on Jerusalem, he moved back
to Rome. There, under the patronage of successive Roman Emperors, he
wrote two large histories on the Jewish people--THE JEWISH WARS and THE
ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS.

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[gekritzl]

@boblackey1 - Hey man, excellent comments on this subject. I wasn't aware Paul might have been lying about being a Hebrew (checking out Maccoby next). Right with you on the rest of your comments.

[boblackey1]

@Franknarfable As to Paul, all the skeptical Phd level experts I have accept SEVEN of his letters as geniune including Galatians and that is one letter where he claims to have met Peter and James who is the Lord's brother. Josephus reads "brother of Jesus (so-called or called) Christ". But the skeptical scholars also doubt several of the letters as being written by Paul and flatly REJECT three as second century forgeries. 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus. As to Heberews, many believers doubt Paul there

[boblackey1]

@Franknarfable I think it is likely John the Baptist existed. The 4 Gospels say he did as does "The Gospel of the Hebrews". They don't know most of that gospel for only quotes exist today from men such as Irenaeus, Epiphanius. Jermone, Origen, Irenaeus etc. Early Christian held it was written in Hebrew by Matthew while Paul and Peter were in Rome. And Louis Feldman, Phd who is a Josephus expert holds that chapter 5,2 of Book 18 is NOT a forgery and so do all other scholars I know about.

[boblackey1]

@Franknarfable Jesus like John the Baptist before him, taught "the Kingdom of God is at hand". These zealots as they are called by the skeptics are said to have been surprised and stunned when Jesus of Nazareth was arrested and executed under Pilate. They had to regroup and Jesus' brother James became leader. Paul is said to have met James, Peter and John and they fussed over doctrine. But Paul never said a world about the virgin birth. Scholars think that, Dec 25th, Sunday etc all came later.

[boblackey1]

@Franknarfable It's the same movement because it evolved. Christianity has evolved for centuries. Even the Roman Catholic Church has evloved with some beliefs discarded and others changed or added. Dr. Mack (Who Wrote the New Testament, the Making of the Christian Myth..a book I have) joins most critical scholars in the view the original movement was headed by John the Baptist and Jesus took over later. They were called Nazarenes, NOT Christians. Jesus thought he was Messiah but not divine....

[boblackey1]

@Franknarfable How do we know they were NOT Jesus' sayings? The Jesus Seminar (skeptical scholars) has voted with their colored marbles so if we are to rely on the experts who are not devout Christians, then we move to amature and private positions which is folly to me. Atheist writer Frank Zindler claims John the Baptist never existed and chapter 5,2 from Book 18 in Josephus is a forgery. Zindler is not a credited scholar and void of a Phd. So even skeptical scholars call him a hack and a fool!

[Franknarfable]

@boblackey1 - "But it's the same movement" - I don't see how that is possible.

"Maccoby doubts Paul was telling the truth about being a Jew" - I doubt Paul completely. Still trying to figure him out really.

It's like the whole thing is purposely confusing - James, Jesus' brother and Simon in the NT. James, Jesus and Simon of Gamala. Simon, Jesus and John rebels in the Jewish War? Are they the same people? I know they say these are popular names, but something isn't right.

[Franknarfable]

@boblackey1 - "Just a few of Jesus' sayings in the New Testament actually passed through his lips"

That really niggles. I'm thinking - how do we know they where Jesus' sayings? I don't want to keep harking back to Judas of Gamala, but if he was a great teacher and influence on the Zealots, then couldn't his sayings have been stolen?

It seems like the history and perhaps the writings of the messianic zealot movement has been stolen. I don't think it was Paul. One man couldn't pull this off.

[boblackey1]

@Franknarfable Well if you're not sold on Paul then you would probably enjoy the writings of Hyam Maccoby, Phd. Google "Maccoby/Paul" and you should get his stuff on Paul. Maccoby doubts Paul was telling the truth about being a Jew and that Paul borrowed much of his theology from the mystery religions of his time and clashed with James, Jesus' brother and Peter in Jerusalem. But Paul's Christianity became the version that took root. But it seems even Paul didn't know about the virgin birth!!

[boblackey1]

@Franknarfable I don't know much about Judas of Galilee. I know he is mentioned in the New Testament in the book of Acts and Josephus reports he fought against Roman taxes but does not record his death. Josephus does record that procurator Alexander put to death Judas's sons James and Simon about 46AD but most of the crazy skeptical Phd level scholars I have here doubt the book of Acts has it facts right on a number of fronts and they doubt Josephus is correct about Judas's sons too.