God and the Halting Problem

Halting Problem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_Problem

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• god
• christianity
• omnimax
• omnipotent
• omniscient
• omniscience
• halting
• problem
• atheist
• atheism
• christian
• bible

[garronsc]

A programmer can know all possible outcomes of his own code because he sets the rules of the program. He can interact with the program as he chooses and know the outcome of his interactions. To the objects in software program, he would be considered omnicient about their world.

I don't think I need to connect the dots for you. ;)

[squarecircle]

But the programmer wouldn't be omniscient; the program would be. And I don't know what you mean about interacting with the program. You seem to be saying that the program is the universe. I didn't make that connection.

[garronsc]

If I wrote a software program that is very limited in its rule structure and could also make the program aware of it own existence, its own boundaries and limitation (the rules of its world) and even make it aware that I created it, then when I accurately tell the program what it will do and when (because I programmed it to do that) - then to this self-aware software program, I would be considered omniscient about its world. The program exists in its own bounded universe - not my universe.

[squarecircle]

But what you're describing is a program that lacks any form of potency whatsoever. It becomes merely an observer unto itself, unable to take any real action.

[Entertainmentwf]

@quietCorpseSociety but, it still means that God can't do it. Can God produce an infinite list of infinite lists. No. Even if he had an infinite amount of time or the ability to hold anything on premise, "God" cannot. If you need a good example of this, I recommend this to people who aren't specialists (like me) in Computability Theory for interest. Computability and Logic by Boolos. Makes it nice and easy to comprehend. He gives an example of why a God cannot.

[Entertainmentwf]

@titanignaz actually it's unsolvable. Looks like someone didn't do enough Theoretical Computer Science... You cannot precompute things with the halting problem, because you just introduced the halting problem again (because, you can't logically decide if you need need finite or infinite storage). Even if you assume that you have a given state, you just introduced the Mortality Problem which is also undecidable. I think you are mixing up universal quantification with existential.

[titanignaz]

The halting problem can't be solved by a computer, true enough, but it's not impossible to solve it: if God or a machine could perform infinite computations in limited time (i.e. resolve the infinite recursion) or store infinite amount of data (i.e. have all scenarios precomputed and thus only having to select the correct one, not solve it) - this would only require a violation of the laws of physics (potentially), not of logic and thus would be very much possible for a supernatural God... foo'.

[Olucatei]

@garronsc NO! That's wrong. The outcome of an arbitrary program is unsolvable. That's the whole point of the halting problem. Outcomes of specific programs can be evaluated, either by running them (which means it is unknown to begin with), or describing it's behavior. Our universe is a chaotic system, so its behavior is non-integrable. In other words you have to simulate the universe to know what it does.

[xybersurfer]

@squarecircle very interesting video. but have you considered a machine that can predict the future but only so that it carefully chooses to predict things that will be true regardless of it's predictions?

[LordUdedenkz]

I fucking love you.

[sahibvirk]

And you speak like Agent Smith

[sahibvirk]

I dint quite understand it completely

But seems an interesting concept

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But whatever u say buddy, the theists will always find a reason to believe in God

[Stretch427]

Interesting analogy. There a few flaws however. Because we are talking about the God of the bible, you have failed to include his omnipresence as well, being everywhere at once (including outside and inside the universe) at the same time. I don't need to connect the dots... I always find it interesting how people use the logic and reason they were created with by God to try and explain Him. It's like the pot explaining the potter, and fully understanding him. Laughable almost...

[quietCorpseSociety]

Are you aware that "God" is not a computer, and isn't necessarily part of our universe in the way that we think of things as part of our universe? Also, he's not warning anyone, so his predictions won't create infinite recursion, since no one knows what's going to happen.

One last thought, couldn't the algorithm for the robot always produce the result, "The future would happen this way if I weren't here to warn you?" That way the robot would ignore itself and produce truth? Hypothetically.