Part 20 of 22 - Muslim - Christian Dialogue - Dubai 2009

Part 20 of 22. This Muslim - Christian dialogue addresses the question "Who is God and how are we saved?". Held in Knowledge Village, Dubai, UAE; 2nd March 2009. Speakers are Bassam Zawadi and Thabiti Anyabwile. Organized by the Christian Fellowship Club of the University of Wollongong in Dubai with corporate sponsor GDS Knowledge Consultants.

Category:

People & Blogs

Tags:

• Allah
• God
• salvation
• Muslim
• Christian
• faith
• interfaith
• dialogue
• Bassam
• Zawadi
• Thabiti
• Anyabwile
• GDS
• debate
• IFES
• religion
• Islam
• Christianity

[karimkong]

You said that the man part didnt over take the God part. This again seems to be your interpretation that the man part overtook when Jesus the Son god was feelin pain, etc, but not the God part. How can man overtake God?!! However there is nothing in the bible that states this, how are you coming to these conclusions? However the most important thing you said is "Jesus was not divided into parts" at all, therefore, Jesus The Son God was then indeed feelin pain, and killed, hence no longer a god.

[karimkong]

@fwfassett And so from all of your comments, what i am seeing that Jesus on earth was Not God correct as he was limited to the laws of earth? And throughout the Father had the upper hand in all, as even Jesus the Son God worshipped him.

[karimkong]

Thank you, your comment further prove the points i was already stating from before. Main point being...Jesus the son God was as you say "LIMITED by his bodily needs..". Which contradicts what you had said earlier that Jesus never lost his power, however as you said his body limited him, therefore limited the God power of Jesus the Son Man god. God cannot be limited...henceforth no longer a God. Which is what i have been saying in the past comments. The father then is the Real God, not jesus.

[fwfassett]

@karimkong - Jesus was not divided into parts. While He was on earth he lived in a human tent/skin, limited by his bodily needs - eat, sleep, drink, etc. He had to be tempted and be sinless as a man. But the man part didn't overtake the God part, The Bible says several times He withdrew to a quiet place to pray - probably to plan the day with Father God. (For arguments sake - his vision was limited by his human body, but Father God was still in heaven and would have a better overview.)

[karimkong]

As far as Allah approving me of using reason and logic to limit him, that wouldnt happen. I cannot limit God. I agree with you on the stance that the human mind is very finite, and God is in-finite. However I do believe that God gave me a brain to reason what is logical and illogical, sure there are many things that i cannot grasp, but if the BASICS, just the VERY BASICS, if they do not add up and make sense, like trinity, then I would just be either decieving myself and believing blindly.

[karimkong]

Seems like Jesus the Son God worships another GOd. If Jesus is God and there is someone even more powerful than him that HE worships than THAT must be the True God. John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to MY GOD and YOUR GOD. So the father must be the REAL TRUE GOD then...seems like Jesus acted like a muslim :)

[karimkong]

Plus if Jesus was God, how come the MAN part overtook the God part?. God part is stronger and more powerful than the MAN part, so should not be subject to the weakness and limitations of the man part. But again no where in the bible does it say that when jesus was in pain or fear or worshipping, the Man part of the Jesus God took over. For arguments sake even if the Man part tookover, it over took the God part! So the God part was overpowered by the Man part, therefore God part was not God.

[karimkong]

Thanks for proving what i had said. 1st off, no where in the bible does it say that when Jesus prayed, only the Man part of the Jesus God prayed, but not the God part. Thats an interpretation you seem to be coming up on your own to justify the paradox that how can God pray to another God or himself, or else it doesnt make sense. I similarly can interpret that the God part of jesus prayed to another stronger more powerful God the Father. Read further

[karimkong]

@fwfassett As again yesterday, youtube limited my comments :(. Anyways, Allah is limitless, Jesus however was limited, as he was subject to the laws of what you call a "tent". I am not sure where you got that reference from as Jesus and his body are not considered a tent in the bibile, havent seen that anywhere in the bible. So from what i am getting is that Jesus was not God but later became God? No where in the bible does it say that as far as i know, bible teaches he was God on earth aswell.

[fwfassett]

@adamz101 - Luke references (22:36) was where Jesus told His disciples to get a sword - because He was going to die and would not be able to protect them as He had. In Matthew 26:39 He was praying (as a man) for the cup of torture and crucifixion to be removed from Him - He was afraid of the pain and suffering, but He submitted to Father God's will, as it says in Heb 5:7.

[fwfassett]

@karimkong - As I said before, would Allah approve of your using your reason to limit him? Jesus' living from newborn until death in a human "tent" enabled Him to die for your (and my) sins. If He didn't live and die as a man He could not have died for men's sins - He had to live a perfect, sinless life to die for our sins. Otherwise He would have been dying for His sins. He didn't die as God, He died as a man and returned to heaven as part of God.

[karimkong]

God can do whatever he pleases true, But if he kills or limits himself, by definition he loses his capability of being God. If someone kills god or overpowers Him, then THAT person or entity is God. Its very Basic, who is the MOST in might and power, mercy and everything, in very very basic terms if you would like it goes to My God is stronger than yours, because he is bigger and better in all terms, therefore he deserves the true worship, Very basic and logical definition is what i am going by.

[karimkong]

My body is a part of me, just like my organs, my soul, my brain, all are a part of me. If one the things dies, i may not die, but i maybe incomplete. If i lose a hand, I maybe handless but may not die. So as a human being i can be incomplete, similarly if Jesus was a human being and supposedly got injured or died, he may be incomplete. But if he is God, then that completely negates him being a God, God can never be injured or killed. Read further

[karimkong]

My definition of God is based on simple logic. He is One, the Eternal (never dies), he does not beget nor is begotten, and NOTHING can be Unlike unto him. He is the MOST powerful, most merciful, NOTHING can LIMIT HIM, He cannot be overpowered, Cannot be killed, Cannot be Incomplete in ANY WAY! These are just a few basic things that characterises God. As for my body and I, what you are saying is not very logical, How can my body not be a part of me.Read next post

[karimkong]

If the CEO disguieses himself as a janitor, he is still the CEO, BUT he cannot be fired by a real Janitor. The point is CEO becomes subject to the lower laws of the subordinate employee.. You ever hear a clerk or a janitor firing a CEO in disguise?See the point is the CEO can fire the employee, but the employee CANNOT fire the CEO. However Jesus was "FIRED" so to speak by the employee. So your changing the Clothes analogy is incorrect.

[karimkong]

If jesus is "not 'a god', then he is not God. That is the point of Islam exactly. You said it yourself best. You also said he is part of a triune God, but not God, so thats completely contradictory. Wt you are saying is that he changes clothes but does not lose his CEO-ship. Here is the problem with that statement, it would make sense if God came onto earth and was not limited by disguising himself into a subordinate employees position. Let me explain further in another post

[karimkong]

God cannot be overtaken by anyone voluntarily or involuntary. God is most loving, and most merciful and most severe in punishment. I will now post replies to each of your statements, hopefully youtube wont limit me like yesterday

[karimkong]

@fwfassett Thanks for your replies. I wanted to write more yesterday, but unfortunately youtube would not let me write further. Your replies brings up more further questions. My definition of God, its simple, basic and logical, doesnt matter what your religion is. God is all one true, most merciful, most gracious, cannot be incomplete in anyway, cannot be limited by anything, or killed. Nothing can be higher than God, he does not need to worship anything as he himself is God.

[fwfassett]

@karimkong - Do you personally know Allah? You are insisting upon God conforming to your expectations, your "logic". Jesus gave His body for a sacrifice to God's punishment for sin. The basic pillar of Christianity is John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." Secondly "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6.

[fwfassett]

@karimkong - Post 6 - Interesting that you feel you can decide what makes a god. Does Allah have a body, a heart, legs? Jesus tells His disciples when they are resurrected they will be given a new body, which will never decay or be sick. His resurrected body was able to pass through walls, appear instantly or disappear. He ate with the disciples, so He wasn't just a spirit which appeared. Our resurrected bodies will be like His. Jesus was not His human body, neither are you.

[fwfassett]

@karimkong - Jesus told his disciples many times He would be killed by the Jewish establishment religion, and that He would rise to life on the 3rd day. Your presumption that God would not allow Himself to be killed is just that - a presumption. What would your Allah say if you told him that he cannot do whatever he pleases?

[fwfassett]

@karimkong - Yes, He allowed the Romans to crucify and torture His body - that's why He came. But He told Peter to put away his sword, saying "Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?" Matthew 26:53-54 He was not overpowered - He laid His life down.

[fwfassett]

@karimkong - Again, glory is not power. I already addressed the CEO question - he's still CEO not matter where he goes or what he wears.

[fwfassett]

@karimkong - Jesus is not "a god" - He is part of the triune God. You are not your body, or just your mind, or just your spirit - you are all three in one person. In your example of the CEO - is he still the CEO if he leaves his office, goes to another place? If he takes off his suit and wears jeans? He may not look the same, but he's still the CEO.

[fwfassett]

@karimkong - Jesus took off His glory and put on a human "tent", but He did not become less God. He voluntarily came in a human tent so He could pay for the sins of the world, as a man. He was never overpowered.

"Then Jesus cried out, 'When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.'" John 12:44-45