Quick Answers to Calvinists Ephesians 2:8-9 - Jacques More

Ephesians 2:8-9 is used to suggest that faith is a gift of God as well as salvation. But, a look at Pauls use of 'kai touto - and this' in the plural elsewhere 'kai tauta - and these' demonstrates that its singular use in Ephesians 2:8 points to only salvation as the gift.

New note Added 15th September 2010.
It is explicit in this passage that salvation is a free gift and no one can boast of receiving that. Now, since this is obtained through faith which is not a gift in itself as demonstrated in this video, then the Scripture not only points to salvation is not out of merit, but that faith exercised - the choice it involves - is not a work of merit.
The salvation by merit argument is thereby a strawman argument.

If you would like to know more about Jacques More and his writings go to www.jarom.net

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[ronathanedwards]

Wallace - ," τοῦτο REGULARLY takes a CONCEPTUAL antecedent."

You are arguing against a basic use of the word, and totally ignoring the fact that 1 Cor 6:8 uses the singular to refer to plural events (concept). Also grace points TO the participle and faith points back AND is the immediate antecedent to touto. Why are you ignoring Wallace's statement? It's a basic factual statement concerning exactly what we are talking about.

[gracetruthguy]

Hi Ron,

I trust you are well.

U "You are . . . ignoring the fact that 1 Cor 6:8 uses the singular to refer to plural events"

It is KAI TAUTA in 1 Cor.6:8 the plural

Since this is fact, KAI TOUTO Paul wants seen as referring to 1 thing only.

Are you prepared to suggest that salvation is not a gift?

[ronathanedwards]

@gracetruthguy We went over this before, the much more reliable texts have the singular touto in 1 Cor 6.8. You are only using the weakest, minuscule evidence not because it is the best (because it is faulty) but because it scratches your itching ears.

Paul refers to the whole concept in Eph. 2:8-9. Grace, Salvation and Faith. You don't have ONE leg to stand on grammatically, sorry bud....

[gracetruthguy]

Hi Ron,

Happy New Year to you.

As I recall I also gave you a number of other biblical examples and since this one exists among equals, even if only in very few Greek manuscripts, then as far as you are concerned, its value continues and its truth stands.

[ronathanedwards]

@gracetruthguy And as I stated before, your other examples do not apply to the Ephesians account. Therefore, they do not lend anything to the argument. The "very few" manuscripts do not hold they are not the "truth" the reliable evidence shows that what you are using for "truth" is unreliable text. The overwhelming evidence is that Paul used the singular to represent the CONCEPT (which is singular) which involves a plurality of ideas. This is represented in Ephesians and 1 Cor.

[gracetruthguy]

Hi Ron,

Here is what I previously wrote:

'So, just to simplify things look up KAI TAUTA in less disputed passages and see that it refers to multiple things THUS - point is made - KAI TOUTO is for single referencing:

1 Timothy 5:7 "And these things command" refers to numerous commands

John 16:3 "And these things they will do to you" multiple types of persecutions'

Thus singular for singular and plural for plural.

A grammar rule that contradicts the Scriptrure shows it is invalid

[ronathanedwards]

@gracetruthguy great!

I haven't forgotten you either.

[gracetruthguy]

Hi Ron,

I haven't forgotten you.

[gracetruthguy]

Hi Ron,

I haven't forgotten you.

[ronathanedwards]

@gracetruthguy Sorry, again not dealing with the obvious. Even read any commentary and see what they refer to, also, I'm getting a hoot out of you not touching PHil 1:19 ! I guess if I ever want to be delivered, I'll get imprisoned since it is the ACT of imprisonment that delivers ! Pride makes people look so silly sometimes.

[ronathanedwards]

@gracetruthguy Wallace believes in sola scriptura also, sorry not a good answer. You haven't shown an example in opposition, that's your problem, you don't understand. That's why you should take Greek 101 and stop pretending that you know what you are talking about.