Equal Temperament vs. Just Intonation

I've given up on this, so #1 is Pythagoream, #2 is Equal Temperament

I recorded a little four part diddy I wrote to see if there's a major difference between just intonation and equal temperament. I seriously can't tell which one is better just by listening to it, so I thought I'd put it out there to the harmony fans to see if there's a difference.

The sound quality is quite meh, I recorded this pretty quick with no regard to extraneous sounds.

Category:

Music

Tags:

• barbershop
• harmony
• jazz
• choral
• chorus
• four
• part
• intonation
• just
• equal
• temperament

[MostlyDifferent]

How did you select which ratios to use for just intonation? Given the thick harmonies, IIRC it would be ideal to have different values for the different pitches based on context, especially if you're autotuning and not stuck with one tuning per pitch like you would be on a piano.

[jimlapbap]

You make good points. I just realized after having a second look at the cent-values (?) I used, I noticed I was using Pythagorean tuning, not based off of ratios. D'OH! I'm going to re-up a new video soon.

[Enix5548]

There is no point to this video. The whole topic about just intonation vs equal temperament doesn't apply to whole music in general (in this case you're representing some dudes singing). Just intonation specifically applies to Baroque music where it does make a difference. Here, it is not noticeably different.

[jimlapbap]

What you're describing sounds like "well temperament," a system that's somewhat in between just intonation and equal temperament, specifically associated with the Baroque.

Whereas, just intonation is a definition, based off of the ratios within the octave (10:9, 9:8, etc.), which is supposedly what Westerners naturally tune terian harmony with our ears, but it's not good at modulating.

Then there's mean tone, based off the circle of fifths, which really goes out of tune to the Western ears....

[jimlapbap]

The goal of this is to determine if while making these a cappella arrangements, it's worth my time to nudge the intervals the few cents to get the more pure Western intervals.

[ixsetf]

Equal temperament is slightly harsher sounding but avoids the wolf fifth, if you are planning on staying in relatively normal sounding keys then pythagorean tuning is best, but if you are chromaticing a lot then I would do equal temperament.

[SmileysRevenge100]

It's subtle, but the second one sounded slightly harsher.

[kratanuva725]

@untidaled There's also I-IV-ii-V-I, which doesn't work in just intonation without movement by either a wolf fifth/fourth, a syntonic comma shift, or a Pythagorean minor third on the ii chord. It's called a comma pump, and it only works in meantone temperament. (In this context, yes, 12-tet is a meantone temperament because it tempers out 81/80)

[MostlyDifferent]

@untidaled Reaktor's awesome if you can put in the time. I got close to proficient, but was doing a lot else at the time. I've seen people use Max/MSP for some pretty dense JI stuff.

[MostlyDifferent]

@untidaled Yeah, that pretty much gets you there. It's always a balancing act with JI... find a scale or two that get you as many applicable pitches as possible, then tweak it to bring in better intervals as appropriate. Unless you go with a completely mobile tonic, and end up doing weirdly awesome things like modulating up by a septimal comma. But that doesn't work so great when trying to tune an existing piece.

[untidaled]

@MostlyDifferent ha, yea shits crazy, dealing with the comma problem looks like a nasty mess in 7-limit. I'm using Reason for making music, deals in cents and pianomap. I'd like a program that just uses ratios, but the few i've found have cheesy midi sounds. I've found a way to use ratios in Reaktor - great program but way too complex for me. I'd like to study up on comma meantones and ways of handling the syntonic comma thing.

[untidaled]

@MostlyDifferent Yea, with different chords in a progression, one set scale wouldn't be so great. Using "C" Ionian scale, and deriving "D" Dorian - you end up with 32:27 (294c) for a 3rd, and 40:27 (680c) for a 5th. But if you use 10:9 as the "D" in "C" Ionian, "D" Dorian gets pure 6:5 3rd and 3:2 5th.

[MostlyDifferent]

@untidaled I'll have to check it out. I actually finished a yearlong course in just intonation this past May from a guy who's an encyclopedia on the stuff, learned way more than I ever wanted to know, all of it fascinating. We messed with 3, 5, 7 limit, all sorts of different comma meantones, pythagorean, etc. Once we looked at a hypothetical JI approach to the Mozart Clarinet Concerto, which necessitated two different intonations for D within the same beat. Still digesting...

[MostlyDifferent]

@untidaled That seems a reasonable approach for a single scale using JI intervals. Given the thickness of harmonies, secondary functions, etc., for maximal JI effectiveness I would use different intervals based on context if I want the music to be optimally in tune with itself. But that then becomes a bit of a project...

[untidaled]

@untidaled shit, I read "Pythagoream" and thought "Phrygian" my bad