Dogfight Domination

Tribute to the battle for domination in the skies over Europe in World War II.

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[cyberOwwwOecho]

@roaklin

I don't defend war or the former system. And according interviews of former German Pilots they didn't either defend the "system" but many German Towns with civilists, woman, kids, refugees, old building etc...

So my comment for sure is not a hymn for "successful killing" - at contrary. I hate this war games.

You asked:" I'm not sure what wappons...."

E.g. the MK-108 especially against the bombers. Good weapons but an additional heavy "stone" in air combat against allied fighters.

[roaklin]

@cyberOwwwOecho No I said "i'm not sure what wappons are but I do know what WEAPONS are." you complete quotes like you choose what facts from history to follow & what to ignore. You also ignore the fact that German fighter production actually went up toward the end but with a flawed system to train the pilots this did them no good as they where no match for the Allies even when they had fuel to fight.

[cyberOwwwOecho]

From 12.732 B-17s manufactured 4.750 were lost to combat. 46.500 US-airmen killed or wounded.

--> watch?v=Pe36UMRkRbk

Pretty much against a country which was in war against >100 nations.

How "dominated" German Aces felt...

--> watch?v=jFsS6MrgWOM

[roaklin]

@cyberOwwwOecho You forget to mention Erich Hartman's famous quote of "Ever 4 Russian planes killed is equal to 1 RAF or American plane killed." Bombers are also easy targets then fighter aircraft because bombers by their very nature are slow moving targets that can not evade and more bombers where actually brought down by FLAK then by fighters. You also failed to post German bomber losses during the war. Present both sides of the argument.

[cyberOwwwOecho]

@roaklin

1200 Bombers escorted by 1000 fighers you call easy, if - at the final of war - there were some dozen of defenders?

I would say the contrary: The German Pilots had "double" - no - "triple" work.

They had to fight against a superior NUMBER of fighters AND bombers under the worst conditions like lack of fuel and material with HEAVYWEIGHTING wappons!

When I look to the number of German scores compared with US-Scores under all this conditions I have to pull off my hat even more.

[roaklin]

@cyberOwwwOecho You are picking and choosing history facts. I'm not sure what wappons are but I do know the Luftwaffe actually had pretty good WEAPONS that were every bit if not more lethal then the ones used by the Allies.All sides fought bravely, all sides committed crimes and all thought they where fighting on the side of good, because when the bullets and cannon shells start flying it don't matter what side you fight they will still kill flesh and bone.

[burjegol]

@cyberOwwwOecho Blame it on Hitler, who insisted that the 262 would be his wonder bomber. Galland was begging the OKW to give the JG 44 in Jevers the 262s, yet they were given a few, and in the nearby woods, more than 60 262s were camouflaged destined to be bombers. The daylight raiders came, carpet bombed the woods and destroyed all 262s. While the 3 262s allocated as fighter rose and downed 6 raiders. What a waste. Thought Hitler was a genius tactician.

[burjegol]

@cyberOwwwOecho Yes, on a mission, 1000 fighters were escorting 1000 bombers. but this fighters were not located on one location alone. they are roaming around, looking for the LW. Hence, in a certain bomber formation, shepherded by 3 squadrons of fighters, if being attacked by 3 gaggles of 109s and 190s + 110s, the US pilots were being outnumbered at that certain instance.

[burjegol]

@cyberOwwwOecho could not get what you are driving at. Marseilles and Hartmann were by training fighter pilots. The first was the terror in north africa and the latter in eastern front. Johnson, on the other hand was in ETO, wherein a certain box formation of bombers were being escorted by a FG composed of usually 3 squadrons of 16 plane each. And they are being attacked by 2 to 3 gaggles of 30 to 50 planes each. Now, who is outnumbered?

[cyberOwwwOecho]

@burjegol

Hartmann and Marseille took a long time because they were - as you told - under instruction and not in position to do "their own job". Second you forget something very important: Johnson ´for sure was not outnumbered. At final of the war many young unexperienced men did there job in Germany, under bad conditions.

[burjegol]

@cyberOwwwOecho

who is the better pilot in your judgment. R.S. Johnson shot down 27 airplanes in 91 missions. He even didn't qualify as a combat pilot. His aerial gunnery score is 4.5 and passing is 5.0. Likewise, he was trained as a bomber pilot. Erich Hartmann got his 27th kill after 150 missions, Hans-Joachim Marseilles after 125th missions. And they were trained as a fighter pilot.

[cyberOwwwOecho]

@roaklin

The Me-262 would've given the air-supperior back to the Germans - they produced enough of the type of airplanes in caves and tunnels drilled into remoted mountain areas - although important materials and alloys for the production run out and had to be substituted. But during the course of war also the lack of new experienced pilots became pronounced.

I use quotes in that way to shorten text due to the YT-limit after 500 characters. So I couldn't either add this fact.