A Trinitarian Theist Encouters a Deist

This was my first in depth conversation with a true deist. A deist views God as the guy that winds up the clock of the universe and then sits back to watch it tick.

Can you use morals to prove the Christian position over against the deist? Yes! An impersonal God has no reason to care for persons. Thus, He cannot be the reason why humans universally embrace personal morals, which means the non-Christian deist is back on the same platform as the atheist, trying to defend moral absolutes with non-absolute authorities, something that always ends up refuting itself.

Category:

Nonprofits & Activism

Tags:

• apologetics
• deism
• moral absolutes
• seth kniep
• evangelism
• theism

[thpaine]

As a Deist, assuming a Creator type god exists, we derive our morals from our god given Reason, observance of Nature, and the "social compact" with our fellow human beings. Just because the Creator doesn't intervene and be "your special friend", doesn't necessarily mean "he" doesn't observe. Deists generally aren't afaid to say "We just don't know everything." Christians, from listening to the interviewer, only has Jeebus to keep them raping and pillaging the countryside.

[sethdtw]

Mr. Paine,

So you do admit that our morals come from God? If our reason is God-given (as you say) and our morals come from our reason, then our morals ultimately come from God, correct?

Assuming you agree with that, here is a question: Why would an impersonal God care about persons? If it's wrong to murder a person because God gave us those morals, why would He care if He's watching the world like a ticking clock, unwilling to intervene and help and save?

And who is Jeebus?

Happy NYear!

[GuitarMannnnnn]

@sethdtw

"our god given Reason, observance of Nature, and the "social compact" with our fellow human beings."

The GGR is unknown, none of the universe's beauty could exist without the big bang.

Our morals are developed out of experiences and concern reflected through the well being of one's self as well as others. Morality is a choice. As the spirits God created can choose their moral alignment, so can we. Positive energy occurs when people of good morality are in charge; religious or not.

[MrEmeraldfusion]

@2:44-The god of the Bible might. He doesn't have a problem torturing people forever and approves of slavery in the bible and human sacrfice both old and new testament.@8:19-God killed everybody(Noah's flood) Tortures people forever in hell because he can. @9:11-Jesus said "thou fool" and so did Paul.@9:18-Thought criminals. According to (quran)...the god who created us and gave you life you sinned against Allah and rejected his prophet...Same logic.

[Kostly]

Oh the biggest laughable faith based bit of scientific theory is "multiple Universes". They created this in light of the Kalam Cosmological argument.  So now chance still reigns supreme!

[ptango101]

This is bizarre. Is he saying that believing in the axiom of logic is a faith based belief and synonymous with having faith in a god??

He's so shocked at the response of this guy being his own moral compass. What is it with you christians and having to look else where for your idea of right and wrong. You are basically saying that without the bible and it's associated beliefs you would be a sociopath. Do you really need a book to tell you torturing children is wrong?

[aridchicken]

As far as I'm concerned, the only Christians who have ANY authority to condemn pedophilia would be (ironically) the Roman Catholics. They have never been 'sola scruptura' and have the added authority of papal edicts. Just as the can add purgatory and limbo, they can say "pedophilia is a mortal sin." Protestants lack this ability to add to the words of the Bible, so they're in the same boat as atheists. So let me ask my question again:

By what authority can you say pedophilia is wrong?

[aridchicken]

It is very conspicuous to point to Matthew 18:6 as an argument against pedophilia because doing so essentially puts the cart before the horse. This verse is a warning against harming children, but nowhere does it say what constitutes harming a child except causing them to turn against God.

(BTW, liberal Christians point to this verse, coupled with modern psychology, to argue that it's wrong to spank children. I'm sure you don't agree with THAT interpretation of this verse.)

continued...

[aridchicken]

At 2:37, you ask if it's even right to ever torture a child to death. Well I pose a similar right back at you: How do you know pedophilia is wrong?

The Bible never sets an age limit on marriage. Nowhere does it say a 50-year-old can't marry a 5-year-old, nor consumate said marriage. The pagan Romans were the first I know of to have marriage age limits. (14 yrs for male, 12 for fem.) We inherited our aversion to pedophilia from the pagans, just like we did with Christmas trees.

continued...

[aridchicken]

A deist can still defend morality using what I call the "Romans 1:18 approach." They can argue that even though God doesn't intervene, he still "programmed" evolution (or humans directly, depending who you ask) to give us unshakable, absolute morals. Atheists can even use this approach if they back door their way through pantheism.

continued...

[youdonthavealltheans]

If we don't have freewill.... then we cannot have conciousness. Conciousness is the mind looking through options. We cannot exist without the ability to subvert whatever is happening in our environment. And when we act we commit a wrong or a right act. God loves us anyway.

[J0EH3AD]

I thik you are right in your arguements Seth. As atheist I see the flaw in Deist vision of morality. I agree that his standpoint is indistiguishable from atheistic point of view.

Maybe the first valuable theis/deist video on youtube. (for me)