William Lane Craig vs Theodore Drange (HQ) 2/11
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@s1lvrinferno OK, so the idea that a magic man in the sky created the world from nothing is therefore rubbish. Fine. However, you can't just make things up -- someone can't just say "we don't know how X came about, therefore it was a magic man in the sky". The concept of a magic man in the sky has thesame intellectual credibility and evidence base as belief in fairies -- nil.
dbes02 5 months ago
@dbes02 can you create something out of nothing? thought not........
s1lvrinferno 5 months ago
@6thwing PROVE THAT THE UNIVERSE HAS A CAUSE and try to prove wrong that TIME CAN'T BE CREATED WITHOUT TIME. Be aware that "to create" is an ACTION that implies time. So If time can't be created without time, then the universe could't have been created, therefore.. DON'T HAVE A CAUSE, therefore, THERE IS NO GOD CREATOR OF TIME > NO GOD CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE.
anyelina5 9 months ago
@6thwing That's not true. The universe CAN'T BE CAUSED because TIME CAN'T BE CREATED WITHOUT TIME, and all universe is SPACE/TIME. If you are saying that the universe MUST have been caused, then god also MUST have been caused using that same argument. If you affirm that god doesn't have a cause or this doesn't apply to your god; PROVE IT. But not with simple speculations or suppositions.
anyelina5 9 months ago
There is no creator called god. Universe is ALL space/time AND THIS IS A SCIENTIFIC FACT."To create" is AN ACTION that implies TIME. But here we are in a point where is NO TIME, and we can't pass from point A (atemporal) to point B (temporal) WITHOUT TIME. because "to pass", "to appear", "to create" are verbs that implied time. WE CAN'T CREATE TIME WITHOUT TIME. Therefore, universe can't be created and if it can't be created, THERE IS ANY GOD CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE.
anyelina5 9 months ago
Every example of moral abomination Craig gives are acts committed, ordered or sanctioned by God.
MrLittleOrno 11 months ago
@6thwing If the universe has a cause how did a magic man get in the picture? In logic (please read about it) this is a non-sequitur, and a bare assertion of a magic man. Until you have evidence for a cause, and the nature of the cause, all you have a circular argument for a "god". Intelligent design argument is self-contradictory: it posits intelligence needs to be designed, but then the designer is designed! There was never a time when the universe was not here - why does it need to "begin"?
dbes02 1 year ago
@6thwing No time without matter. Matter can emerge spontaneously, uncaused. Hence time needs no cause. Which god? There are 1000s of them. Presumably you mean the biblical god, but its moral code changed between Tanakh and New Testament so you sink a claim of objective morality. Useless circular argument to begin with, saying "god is good". You sloppily confuse moral instinct - sense of right and wrong - with moral codes that specify what's right & wrong. No objective morality in sight.
dbes02 1 year ago
@dbes02 And finally, use logic. God is necessary? Why? Because the UNIVERSE HAS A CAUSE. That which causes the Universe has to be TRANSCENDENT of the Universe.
That which is transcendent of the Universe is called God. Now If you think this is wrong, show me; I used deductive logic, that is, if you agree with my premises, then the conclusion (whether you like it or not) MUST be true. So what is your problem? You think 1)the Universe did NOT begin? Or 2)that Things that begin DON'T have a cause?
6thwing 1 year ago
@dbes02 You don't need TIME to Cause something. Because TIME ITSELF is caused. Think a little man; your trying to be so argumentative... but you're not thinking.
Next, God's morality is not Subjective. God doesn't 'choose' something because it is good, nor is anything Good because he said it. God does as he wills and God IS Good. So naturally, what God does is Good. Objective Morality shows a right and wrong. I'm sure the way you live your very life testifies to this fact.
6thwing 1 year ago