Clip from 'What a Way to Go'

A part of http://www.whatawaytogomovie.com/

Category:

News & Politics

Tags:

• documentary
• enviroment
• climate
• politics

[JeffyAToronto]

When I originally started reading about Peak Oil, and reading the works of Derrick Jensen, I actually considered committing suicide for a while. Now I've decided to live my life...but I've stopped saving for my retirement (there isn't going to be one) and am trying to live through the, perhaps, 20 years that I have before the world as we know it starts to collapse around us (governments reaction to this will be to try to find scapegoats...think Germany 1933 on a much larger scale).

[MonsieurTon]

This documentary is so brilliant! Congratulations to the authors, awesome compilation of sensitivity, knowledge, phylosophy... Poetic and scientific, beautifully narrated. THANKS!

[CognitiveImbias]

@johan404 (continued) An economy is healthy when there are enough available resources to cover the upkeep costs of it's wealth-producing infrastructure (workers fed and housed, machinery repaired, etc). If Earth were a closed system of finite resources, this system would inevitably fail. But the Earth is not a closed system-life would never have evolved if it were (thermodynamics). As long as the Sun exists, there is an influx of resources that can keep an economy healthy, even if it can't grow.

[CognitiveImbias]

@johan404 A period of GDP decline is the definition of recession, it has nothing to do with evidence. But GDP is a product of an economy, not the economy itself. "The economy" is the total wealth-productive capacity of a population.When healthy, it will produce excess wealth if there are available resources.This excess wealth may be used to grow wealth-productive capacity.In other words, growth requires increased resource usage, but increased resource usage is not required for a healthy economy.

[johan404]

@CognitiveImbias Empirical evidence shows that when an economy doesn't grow, it goes into what's called a "recession" and eventually a "depression" if there's negative growth. Hence, because people don't want to live in a failing system, economies require infinite growth, which is not possible due to physical limitations. In today's world it's even more complicated though, because the global economy is glued together with enormous amounts of debt, which is to be paid back with interest.

[CognitiveImbias]

@johan404 Your earlier comments betray the true extent of your understanding of economics, but I'll humor you for a bit if you like. I made the claim that growth is a product of a thriving economy, rather than the cause of it. You answered with by posing the rhetorical question of "what happens when an economy doesn't grow?" Why don't you go ahead and fill me in here--what do you think the answer to that question is?

[johan404]

@CognitiveImbias I know a lot about economics. You haven't really explained what you claim to know, you just said "Oh, you don't know economics" ... and then didn't elaborate. Why don't you elaborate first, so I can get a better idea of exactly what you want to say.

[CognitiveImbias]

@johan404 Seriously, this discussion is destined to be totally unproductive until you know something about economics. Right now, you sound like a creationist arguing against evolution without ever having studied biology. Do your homework, then we can talk. The book I mentioned earlier can be read in a weekend. It won't give you a full understanding of the field, but it will at least enable you to speak the language.

[johan404]

@CognitiveImbias What I think you're insinuating is that we can fix all of this with some economic trickery, while ignoring the fundamentals like natural resources and energy. Economies don't rely on growth to function? Huh, what happens when an economy doesn't grow?

[CognitiveImbias]

@johan404 I can't meaningfully tackle your economics concerns before you know what economics is. At this point, we just aren't speaking the same language. I suggest you read Henry Hazlitt's "Economics in One Lesson" as a starting point. It's a great read and not that long, and you can find it for free online. Suffice it to say, the view that an economy relies on continual grown is erroneous. Growth is a product of a successful economy, not the cause of it.

[johan404]

@johan404 I'm saying the economy is a subsystem of nature, and the laws of nature will always trump economics. A modern human can't live on 600 calories per day. Our economy can't function unless it grows infinitely, and an economy can't grow without an increase in consumption. Infinite growth on a finite planet is not possible. In fact, even agriculture is unsustainable because there is always a net loss of nutrients from the soil, which will add up untill there's nothing left.

[CognitiveImbias]

@johan404 I'm not sure what thermodynamics has to do with the rest of your comment, perhaps you can enlighten me. As far as disease goes, I strongly suggest you take the time to actually look at the data. Who knows what new and interesting things you might learn.