Does Morality Need God?

Complete video at: http://fora.tv/2009/12/07/The_Great_Issues_Forum_Varieties_of_Nonbelief

Philosopher Colin McGinn and theologian Denys Turner discuss the question of whether atheism can coexist with a sense of morality. Both agree that morality exists independently of divinity.

-----

Journalist Susan Jacoby, philosopher Colin McGinn, and theologian Denys Turner explore questions such as: Is humanism another kind of religion? Is it religion's evolutionary future, rather than just one of several alternatives? What light does the recent scientific study of religion throw on these possibilities?

How do the new humanists compare to the new atheists? Can an atheist identity be shaped by a positive ethic, or must it be primarily an anti-religious sentiment? How will the persistence of belief and disbelief, as well as the tension between them, shape thought and culture in the 21st century? - CUNY

Colin McGinn (B.Phil., Oxford University), joined the UM Philosophy Department in 2006, having taught previously at University of London, University of Oxford, and Rutgers University. He was the recipient of the John Locke Prize at Oxford University in 1973. His research interests are in philosophy of mind (particularly consciousness, intentionality and imagination), metaphysics, ethics and philosophical logic.

Denys Alan Turner is a British academic in the field of philosophy and theology. He is currently Professor of Historical Theology at Yale University having been appointed in 2005, previously having been Norris-Hulse Professor of Divinity at Cambridge University. He earned his PhD in Philosophy from Oxford University.

He has written widely on political theory and social theory in relation to Christian theology, as well as on Medieval thought, in particular, mystical theology.

Category:

News & Politics

Tags:

• god
• dead
• morals
• sense
• morality
• moral
• code
• ethics
• right
• wrong
• atheists
• atheism
• religion
• scripture
• bible
• belief
• fora.tv
• foratv
• fora
• tv
• denys
• turner
• colin
• mcginn
• graduate
• center
• cuny

[BFSDean]

Is there a difference between believing in the Biblical God or just a higher being? I am moral and honest but would never claim some one else made me this way.

[Mystagogia87]

@ApatheticOmniscience No, I wouldn't have to presuppose God's goodness. As a human being, I'd start with part of the data I receive, which is that I have moral faculties that orient me towards goodness. Then I'd look at the philosophical implications from there.

[Mystagogia87]

@ApatheticOmniscience "Because most people who have found themselves in hell, didn't even know it before it was too late"

How do you know anybody is in hell? I'm the religious one here. Why don't we leave the unfounded, unverifiable assertions to me.

[ApatheticOmniscience]

@Mystagogia87 Perhaps not, unless he initially created us without free will.. But he certainly could have made it a whole lot easier to come to love him. Because most people who have found themselves in hell, didn't even know it before it was too late. He could have at least made himself obvious enough so that only the most stubborn and rebellious atheists would be in hell..

[ApatheticOmniscience]

@Mystagogia87

Ehh, well sociopaths are actually defined by not having a conscience.

However, I don't think you could really use conscience here. For on theism, God placed conscience within us by "writing it on our hearts". So in order for one to argue that conscience confirms God's properties as good, you'd have to presuppose God's goodness which seems a bit circular.

[Mystagogia87]

@ApatheticOmniscience God can't simply place everyone in heaven. From a Christian perspective, heaven is a loving relationship with God. You can't make somebody love you, as loving is an act of the will. It's a logical impossibility to force somebody to freely love you,so can't can't force anyone into heaven. Hence, we have free will as we are presented with the opportunity to love God. But, free will can be abused, hence the possibility of hell.

[Mystagogia87]

@ApatheticOmniscience Sociopaths do have some kind of conscience, though they choose to ignore it. They can still correctly answer which is better, helping an old lady cross the street or stabbing her to death. They can recognize the good, but don't choose to pursue it.

[ApatheticOmniscience]

@Mystagogia87 But it's interesting that you say God has no needs. If its about selfless love, then he shouldn't have created the universe or any sort of mortal "faith test" for us. Just heaven.

So if he has no desire to serve himself, only us, why doesn't he simply place everyone in heaven? Why even have the possibility of hell?

[ApatheticOmniscience]

@Mystagogia87 "First, I'd appeal to conscience." But by looking at our sociopathic brethren or the unstoppable individual in your thought experiment, we can see that conscience isn't really reliable. I'll put it this way, what makes your conscience out weigh that of the "pro- red triangle's"?

[Mystagogia87]

@ApatheticOmniscience A perfect being would need nothing. The good is diffusive of itself, and often expresses itself in a desire to share. A perfect being would have no needs and therefore could only create for the interest of the other.