Jean Sibelius 5th Symphony 1st movement, Part 1

Wolfgang Michel conducts 2002
www.wolfgangmichel.com

Category:

Music

Tags:

• Jean Sibelius
• 5th Symphony
• conductor

[KerlleNaa]

@KerlleNaa And then the changes between 2/4 and 4/8 f.e. in Mahler 6, 2nd movement or in Till Eulenspiegel make sense. I actuall ybeat the whole second movement of the Eroica in a subdivided 2/4 pattern. not 4/4. Makes a big difference f.e., when you beat the diminished seventh chord at the climax up instead of to the side. Gets new philosophical background, if you "fight" with heaven so to say, when beating up...

Just thoughts, not the truth....

[KerlleNaa]

@Artaudin2 Another thought more in conducting pattern terms is the difference between subdivided 2/4 and 4/8 bar. Seem to be the same at first sight, but I think it is a major difference. In the conducting handbook of Hermann Scherchen from the 1920´s or so, I found the pattern listed for subdivided 2/4 as: two down and two up (not the usual 4/4 pattern). Since he lists it, it must have been in use.

[KerlleNaa]

@KerlleNaa The ultimate is in Tristan in the third act short befor Isolde comes in the frenzy of Tristan in the I think it´s 6/8 Wagner writes a triplet bar, which is always beaten in three, mostly for the singers sake and the tempo it is in. but it should actually still be beaten in two.

[KerlleNaa]

@Artaudin2 The ending of Prelude of a Faune is another example, where the harp plays quatuplets against the 12/8. I´ve had even orchestras ask me to beat that in eight instead of twelve ("it´s usually done like that" - what a helpless explanation), but the music is written in 12/8 and it says ritardando. Find me a conductor, who exactly switches from 12/8 to 8/8 in tempo and goes back to twelve, besides that the friction of 8 against 12 is lost.

[KerlleNaa]

@Artaudin2 Especially when rhythm is written against the meter one must stay with the meter. I´ve seen conductors beat the triplets, f.e. in the monolog of Elektra where the trombones play Agamemnon´s theme. Probably good for ensemble (although I even doubt that) but certainly against the music.

[Artaudin2]

@KerlleNaa That is an interesting idea, that the content build tension against the form is a good explanation of one way in which form and matter interact. Important insight probably applicable to many kinds of music and other art too.

[moosatious]

My recollection from years ago is that it's in 5/8.

[Kurkikohtaus]

"tension against the meter", well said, I agree with this.

[KerlleNaa]

From the top of my head without looking in the score:

No, I don´t necessarily believe in beating the music instead of beating the beat. If Sibelius would have wanted it in 6 or later in an augmented 3/4 i.e. 6/4, he would have written so. By not doing this, the music builts tension against the meter, an effect which I believe Sibelius wanted.

[Kurkikohtaus]

Such a difficult transition to conduct, going into the recapitulation where the strings sound like they're playing 6 beats agains 4...

In preparation for this concert, did you ever think of actually conducting this in 6? And then perhaps conducting 3 beats over 2 bars later on when the meter changes to 3/4?

I'm not SUGGESTING this, I'm just wondering if you thought about it.

- Kurki -