2.1 Deconversion: Prayer

I explain why, for theological reasons, I stopped believing in the validity of intercessory prayer as a Christian.

I also comment on the famous 2006 study on intercessory prayer[1] and present GIIVideo's argument against the validity of the "Yes", "No", and "Wait" heuristic that many theists use to justify the practice of intercessory prayer.

All excerpts used in this video are either copyright-free or covered under "fair use" in Title 17 § 107 of the USC.

Music:
"Ave Maria" by The Sixteen
"Jaracanda" from the iLife Sound Effects library

1. "Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: a multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer." Benson, Dusek

NYTimes article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

Category:

Education

Tags:

• God
• Christian
• atheist
• secular
• humanist
• deconversion
• conversion
• saved
• baptism
• in
• the
• holy
• spirit
• pentecostal
• assemblies

[ogith]

@ItsSoMe2011

To claim that god takes a personal interest in your affairs is not only delusional, it is selfish to an obscene level.

There are hundreds of thousands of people in the world who are starving to death, who suffer from incurable diseases, who pray far harder than you most likely ever had seconds before they died, and every last one of them has their prayers go unheeded.

Yet here you are, spouting to the world that god healed your _sore ankles_. Shame on you.

[esplin227]

@cakeliar1 Why does he require faith? Seems like we are the children desperately wanting to meet our father but he is a dead beat dad. Oh and even if we meet if we don't pick him out of a crowd of 30 thousand other men who say that they are our father he going to shoot us in the face. Also we cant just pick him to be safe because the other men make the same threat. Also we don't know which one actually has a gun or whether any of them do. See the problem. -_-

[ogith]

@mattersmail

I can do so no more effectively than you can show a meaningful pattern in life for the man convinced violent islamism is the way, without knowing intimately the level of knowledge the man holds and the many experiences in his life that shape him into someone who rejects/ignores/is unaware of other patterns and paths in life

I actually did respond to it, as you defined it as god's will/nature. I know what you're aiming for. It interests me not. Morality=/=Proof of god

[mattersmail]

@ogith So how then, in your mind, can an 'argument' about morality be honest? Tell me so we can converse more honestly about what we each believe is right and good. I see no more meaningful pattern for life than following Christ - can you show me one?

You avoided my question about what defines something as good - why?

[mattersmail]

@MidgardEagle You speak of death and suffering as if they are evil, yet we are all destined to experience both in this life.

Prayer isn't for escaping suffering or escaping death. I believe that the Bible teaches that we pray in order to align ourselves with God's purposes, rather than seek our own desires. Of course your version of prayer 'doesn't work;' you set it up to suggest that if God loved us, he'd give us whatever we asked for. Rather, He focuses us on what we need - His purpose.

[MidgardEagle]

@mattersmail Yes, I disagree. I have found that humans deprived of food and the bare neccessities for living tend to die. But at least we seem to agree that prayer doesn't work and God doesn't help the suffering.

[ogith]

@mattersmail

Messages of (arguable) morality can be found within all faiths, and if this is honestly your motivator for belief one would think that you would have opted to become a Jainist (arguably the most peaceful religion that currently exists).

Since this (or similar philosophical stances) is so rarely the case, I feel that most arguments to morality are dishonest when the question of religion arises, since it can be found elsewhere and then often far better.

[ogith]

@mattersmail

This once more leads to the question of how God is defined, and it is here many classically religious people do the concept a massive disfavor, limiting it to what actually amounts to not much more than a powerful human with certain traits exaggerated.

That God(s) cares AT ALL shows the human tendency to insert its values and beliefs wherever it can, anthropomorphizing even concepts of divinity so that they revolve around our do's and don'ts, wants and want nots.

[mattersmail]

@ogith That depends on how you define what is 'good.' How do you define it?

Faith in God is faith in His goodness. Christ's character and example showed quite the opposite of 'might makes right.' He taught us to peaceably resist evil and to persist in doing good.

Narcissism is beyond a religious problem - it is THE defining problem of humanity. I think God cares about our beliefs, because they inform our actions, which affect others. Belief is at the root of everything we do.

[mattersmail]

@MidgardEagle We are all in need. in the West, we need purpose for living (no petty need, if you ask me); in 3rd world countries, more basic needs may take center stage. God's help involves (among other things) an invitation to purposeful living by meeting the needs of others. For those who accept the challenge, God promises to meet all their other needs.

Human need isn't primarily physical; it's spiritual - a purpose for living, and the right perspective to see with. Do you disagree?

[MidgardEagle]

@mattersmail Hmm, no, your explanation still leaves countless people in need all over the world without God's help. Try again.

[ogith]

@mattersmail

I'd actually agree with you, but that really depends. If _a_ god is described as good and omnipotent, yet acts in neither way, should religious authority make you conform to these morals and consider it just? Should "Might makes right" be the law to live by?

Regardless of religion, there is a narcissism inherent to all of them. They all rely on the assumption that all reality revolves around mankind, and that The Creator of All Existence cares about our petty beliefs