John Piper - Sickened By The Ugliness Of Their Own Sinfulness

Help The Children Love The Different People
Romans 5:1-11
January 17, 2009

http://desiringGod.org.

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[PaulmanC]

@cornwallsteve I think this is what he means. Ephesians 2:1-10 touches on it, I think. The way I see it, unless we truly understand the depth of our sinfulness and spiritual deadness in relation to God, unless we realize how we were "children of wrath" (i.e. God was going to fairly bring about the justice our sinfulness/offense demanded), then we won't truly understand what Jesus' blood "saved" us from. We'll just think Jesus is necessary for heaven, but I wasn't that evil a person initially.

[PaulmanC]

So in summary, let us argue about whether Piper's metaphor was in line with what God has told us or not, IN MEANING. Let us NOT argue about whether the specific word-picture Piper used can be found in the Bible, because by that standard, we should denounce any pastor who tells you something like, "God wants to be a greater treasure to you than even your beautiful wife Sally", because nowhere in the Bible does God mention Sally. The example is extreme & nitpicky, but the principle is the same.

[TurnIntoGhosts]

This is sickening. How anyone can get behind this ignorant, destructive way of thinking is beyond me.

Coveting your neighbour's possessions is a sin but corrupting a child's mind with this unfounded, harmful tripe is not?

You can make excuses all you want, but in the end, you're brainwashing kids into thinking they are worthless and can only be saved by a life of servitude and devotion to an intangible being that professes to love but who's actions show something different altogether. Despicable

[MrMathjordan]

Jesus died so that consciousness of sins should be removed.

[tweezy100]

@brendos444 sin is not 'learned' as you say, you have to understand it as an inherited disease that existed within you from inception, its a corruption down to the core of your being. It is not like the flu, or a learned behavioral pattern, that smacks of the secular understanding of religion. Secular philosophies teach that humanity is basically good, but this is not christian ideology. We 'were' created good, but we have been corrupted and no longer does good come naturally.

[TheLaughingOut]

@Zuriox If his point was that when you insult the entire human race you get people angry then yeah, I proved his point. Trust me, I've been a Christian, nothing but guilt and fear, especially when your a hell-bound queer like me.

[Zuriox]

@TheLaughingOut Your post kind of proves Piper's point, doesn't it? Face it, and don't worry, you don't get suicidal or anything bad at all once you realise how BAD you are, you become totatly in amazed, in awe of God's grace and mercy, and it is GOOD! :)

[TheLaughingOut]

This moron thinks that because he has such self-hatred that everyone should also feel that way.

Fuck you, John Piper.

[brendos444]

..to be satisfied or appeased goes right against scriptural, apostolic and patristic teachings and can only be substantiated by taking verses out of context which is what Anselm did, which is what the reformers did. this God who hates us but loves us at the same time is incoherent. Furthermore, it puts forgiveness at nought. Afterall a God who requires satisfaction can not be said to have forgiven in any sense. So we must reject this notion if we at all want to understand God's righteousness

[brendos444]

btw, the views I expressed above have been held by Eastern Orthodox Christians for 2000 years. The Anselm/Calvin view of God really leaves no room for love because a God who damns those who he preordains to damnation can not be a God of love. Further, the judicial framework that Anselm forces onto scripture was not the interpretation of the apostles or of the early church fathers. It is completely alien to Jewish Christian thought. the idea that God's honor is offended & therefore he needs..

[brendos444]

@xDSlimz No God is Love. Love is not one of many attributes of God, it is the essense of his triune being. the wrath of God used in scripture means that his righteousness and love will be experienced wrath by those who hate God. That is why the scriptures say that God is a consuming fire. To those who love God, his appearance is experienced as life and warmth. This judicial understanding of God is really a big mistake brought in by Anselm of Canterbury in the 11th century.