Did Augustine believe because Rome said so? An informed response to Roman Catholic claims

This is a video response to a question I received asking about Augustine's quote in which he said "I would not have believed the Gospel were it not for the authority of the Catholic Church" (paraphrased). The gist of this quote is intended by Roman Catholics to say that Augustine deferred all authority to the RCC and, thus, not to the Scriptures as the Protestants do. I actually quote extensively from Augustine to give context to his quote so that all can see this is not the case and I also quote from Calvin who dealt with this very quote in his own life and work.

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• prchdaword

[deliveringit]

Plus, he does NOT say, "I would not have believed..." but "I should not believe..." You changed that over in "More Info" and also in your opening statement. Your rendition is more favorable to your thesis, since you are incorrectly using wrong verb tense. "I should not believe" is the correct rendering and captures my point that this is true not only in the past at the moment of first believing, but that it carries into the present.

[prchdaword]

curious, but are you this tedious with tenses in the Bible concerning justification, election and predestination?

[deliveringit]

Putting aside our obvious disagreement over the details, nonetheless, I want to compliment you on an excellent video, in that, you really take the time to look at the whole context, and you research others' exegesis. While I disagree with your conclusions, yet, I really appreciate your video and how you are concerned with context. Too many people only take little snippets.

[prchdaword]

yes, well at least this way listeners can have more to work with and decide on which interpretation does Augustine more justice =)

[deliveringit]

"the INITIAL arguments (if you want to call them that) that persuaded him of the truth were based on the authority of the Church" Yes, but they still do. E.G. at 3:56 in your video, "I will (future tense) keep to those who commanded me to believe the Gospel." He believed initially due to the Cath Church's authority, he still does, and will in the future. Also, 5:10, "Since both writings alike Cath. Auth. commends to me" That is present tense. Now -As a believer- Not just in the past.

[prchdaword]

your ignoring his statements about requesting scriptural proof from the Gospels/New Testament to prove the authority of the Church or Mani's claims. =/

[prchdaword]

Notice also that Augustine asks for Scriptural proof to support the authority of Mani. Augustine blatantly admits that that which the Scriptures teach is that which he will follow, whether Mani or the Church. This is why he says, "read me in the Gospel....will you read me the passage..." Augustine is still asking for the proof of authority FROM THE SCRIPTURES. If this is true, then the Church, as Augustine believes derives her authority FROM SCRIPTURE and God's REVELATION, not herself.

[prchdaword]

Rather....he is dealing with a hypothetical about how one approaches dialogue with an unbeliever, especially a Manichean who is attempting to debunk the Gospel or teach contrarily.

In essence, when they assert their "authority" , the Church must exert hers. Either way, when the "unbeliever" is confronted with the choices, they must in essence submit to one authority over the other. Augustine is presupposing the authority of Rome over the one who accepts Mani's.

[prchdaword]

yes, Augustine is himself a believer at this point and it is not in dispute. But what Augustine is saying is that the INITIAL arguments (if you want to call them that) that persuaded him of the truth were based on the authority of the Church and this would seem to be the case of how one should reason with "unbelievers" when attempting to convince them of the truth of the Gospel.

Augustine is not making a blanket statement attributing infallibility or ultimate authority to Rome...

[prchdaword]

I provide the whole quote and the source from which I read it in context. Augustine seems to be saying that the person with no committment to either side (the seeker, lets say) is INITIALLY persuaded by authority. Hence, he says as it was for himself that he would not have believed had it not been for the authority of the Church. Again, Augustine makes it clear that this argument is for those with no prior leanings. They have to "have faith" as it were, on the basis of authority.