Response to Monica Denningtons "Bad Fruits from Bad Roots" pt 2

Video discussion of the trial and death of Michael Servetus.

This is not a defense of Calvin's actions or role in the trial and death of Servetus.
If anything I want to offer some points of thought as Calvin, his conscience and God know what truly happened and with what motives. I start by criticizing the methodology that most people use when judging Calvin in this matter and then move on to some facts regarding Michael Servetus and John Calvin and his role in the punishment inflicted by the town council and then finish with some final thoughts to consider whenever we engage in these kinds of Ad Hominem arguments.

God bless,

Moses

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[prchdaword]

@BondiHarry....my friend, all I'm point out is things were different then.....I know you want to be as hard as you can on Calvin, but our times are not his...we have more Gospel influence than he had because Rome had been ruling in darkness for so long....yes, a great light came from the Reformation, but it took time for that light to spread out and for many, including Calvin, to comprehend all that it entailed; that is, the application of the Gospel to all life. It doesn't happen overnight

[prchdaword]

@BondiHarry....ok, not sure you got what I said...I didn't say that the Church WAS the state...what I said was that the Church had her hands in the state....remember that the emperors of the Holy Roman empire were so by Papal delegation....I am also not arguing that the Gospel was different so don't represent my argument that way. In Romans 13, Paul tells us that gov't is ordained by God to wield the sword so Calvin, in a sense at the time was submitting to the government of the time.

[BondiHarry]

@prchdaword Church as state is a concept of men ... it is found no where in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Indeed, throughout the Bible, what it does teach about 'government' is that leaders (kings and princes) are to be themselves righteous and sober and they are to ensure that justice is done. We are NEVER told to look to government for anything but to look to the kingdom of heaven. Things were different in Calvin's time? The gospel was the same then as now so in that you are wrong.

[prchdaword]

@BondiHarry separation of Church and state is more of an American idea as people sought freedom from the Church of England (so closely tied to the Crown!) that they sought a new place to practice their religion apart from the dictates of the state. Things were different in Calvin's time is my point and we cannot judge him by todays standards as they were still Reforming....but we owe plenty of our ideas that we are applying to Calvin here to Calvin and his theology.

[prchdaword]

@BondiHarry he was tried and condemned for Blasphemy. Remember at that time, there was no "separation of Church and state" like we know today. The Church had her hands in the state. Remember Luther was tried, not before a theological council but before a civil magistrate of the Holy roman empire. The Church and the state were nearly inseparable....it was later after the English Reformation that that the Church began to want the state out of its affairs

[BondiHarry]

@prchdaword I thought Servetus was executed for heresy. Heresy is a religous concept, not a secular one. I wonder how many members of that 'civil government' were church goers and considered themselves Christians. And again, Calvin and those in civil government who claimed Christ had the same books of scripture we do today. Scripture calls for the excommunication and shunning of heretics, not their execution. Execution for heresy was an invention of men contrary to God's word.

[prchdaword]

@BondiHarry He probably should have knowing what we know now....but remember Calvin was coming out of a period of darkness and the Reformers were just starting to Reform the church and it took time for most of society including governement to be Reformed. Again, I have to point out that it was not the Church that put Servetus to Death but the Civil Government. This is where I am saying we have to be fair to Calvin and the time he was in and what they were just starting to do.

[BondiHarry]

@prchdaword My point is the committed Christian will follow God's counsel to us. There is no excuse for anyone professing Jesus to be their Lord to execute 'heretics', to wage wars for power, land or riches or to practice perpetrating evil to their fellow man yet professing Christians have done these things; we go by the Bible. Knowing what the Bible says about how we handle heretics, Calvin should have denounced the practice of executing them and pointed out how God tells us to handle them

[prchdaword]

@BondiHarry condemned Servetus to the death penalty and he escaped and went straight to Geneva. Had Servetus not escaped, he would have been executed for the same charge in Lyons.

[prchdaword]

@BondiHarry my point here, is education on some facts about this incident that do not get mentioned because people choose to be uninformed about what happened with Michael Servetus.....murder this cannot be called by Calvin in any sense. That would be like saying any who execute criminals for a capitol crime also become murderers and must be executed themselves. Then where does the cycle end? The town council of Geneva had all the say in the sentence; prior to them, Lyons had already....