1439

more info:
http://thebananarepublican.blogspot.com/2009/03/florentine-reductio-of-easter...

the Council:
http://www.piar.hu/councils/ecum17.htm

from Mr. James Likoudis (former Eastern Orthodox, now Catholic apologist):

WHY EASTERN CHRISTIANS NEED UNION WITH ROME


Our Orthodox brethren claim that the Bishops of Rome have over-reached their legitimate authority in claiming real universal jurisdiction over all the Churches of East and West, instead of just a primacy of honor. Yet they claim the Eastern Orthodox Church enjoys that infallible teaching authority which the Catholic Church also claims, and which is necessary to communicate and maintain faithfully the fullness of Gods revelation to mankind in Jesus Christ. But there is a deep logical flaw in the Orthodox understanding of the ecclesial teaching authority (magisterium). The key question is this:
Where do we look for our infallible guide? How do we recognize it? Orthodoxy answers as follows:
Proposition 1: Infallibility is to be recognized in the solemn doctrinal decisions of ecumenical councils.
OK, but then, how do we recognize which Councils are truly ecumenical? Of the 20 ecumenical councils that Catholics recognize, the Orthodox recognize only the first seven, held in the first millennium A.D., before the East-West split. And the expanded Orthodox answer to our original question, taking into account this further question, now turns out to be this:
Proposition 2: Infallibility is to be recognized in the solemn doctrinal decisions of those councils which are not only papally confirmed as ecumenical, but which are also subsequently accepted (or received) as such by the whole Church.
The Orthodox say this because while their own theologians and bishops at the Councils of Lyons II (1274) and Florence (1439) agreed to recognize full papal authority, these agreements were then rejected by most ordinary Eastern believers, who emphatically didnt want to submit to the Roman Pope. But Proposition 2 raises the question of how we are to recognize the whole Church? Who counts as members of it? Catholics answer with a visible criterion: Those Christians in submission to the Bishop of Rome (who is a highly visible public figure) make up the membership of the one true Church. Since the Orthodox have no such visible criterion, they have to answer in terms of something invisible truth. So:
Proposition 3: Infallibility is to be recognized in the solemn doctrinal decisions of those councils that are not only papally confirmed as ecumenical, but are also accepted (or received) as such by the whole community of Christians who adhere to true doctrine.
But since infallibility itself is nothing other than a gift to the Church enabling Christians to distinguish true doctrine from false doctrine, the Orthodox Proposition 3 turns out to mean the following absurdity:
Proposition 4: Christians can come to know with certainty what is true doctrine by recognizing the solemn doctrinal decisions of those councils which are not only papally confirmed, but which are also subsequently accepted as such by the whole community of Christians who adhere to true doctrine.
In other words, the Orthodox answer to our original question turns out, upon analysis, to be a mere meaningless tautology. It advises us: To discover what is true Christian doctrine, you must pay heed to the teaching of those who adhere to true Christian doctrine! Since Orthodoxy thus has no coherent theology for the transmission of divine revelation, it cannot be the Church of Christ in its fullness.
Saint Josaphat, pray for us and for the reunion of our Orthodox brethren with Peters Successor!

Category:

Education

Tags:

• Ecumenical
• Council
• of
• Florence
• union
• between
• East
• and
• West
• Roman
• Catholic
• Church
• Eastern
• Orthodoxy

[SerbieLibre]

St. Mark of Ephesus, pray for us !

[BlackCappa]

He's not a Saint, but a troublemaker.

[SerbieLibre]

He's not a saint for Roman-Catholics, of course.

:-)

[BlackCappa]

And for Eastern Catholics.

;-)

[SerbieLibre]

Roman-Catholics and "Eastern" Catholics, it's the same.

[BlackCappa]

Eastern Catholics do not fall under the Roman rite though.

But yes, we are Catholics.

[TheEcumenator]

ah good to see some good catholics on the comments!

[Bingolly1]

Thanks for this information. It is something I will look into. GBU

[Shlomayo]

@vasilyjc1955

1) There was no rejection of the Ecumenical Symbol as we use both versions: the issue has been settled in Florence. Some people just never learn, no?

2) Your first statement makes no sense.

3) I rather not respond to your useless propaganda.

[vasilyjc1955]

@Shlomayo I am far from rationalizing. Instead of making off the wall comments, explain why the Orthodox are schismatics, when it was Rome who excommunicated the Eastern Church. Why did the Papacy reject the decisions regarding the Creed in the Second and Third Ecumenical Councils and added the Filioque? Papl supremacy is only a political ideology. PapISM and CatholicISM, are just two more "ISMs" added to the list.

[Shlomayo]

@vasilyjc1955

I realize you are trying to rationalize the failure of the Eastern schismatic Churches here. Sorry, but the cheap shots about the Filioque and Papal Supremacy are rather useless.

[Shlomayo]

@vasilyjc1955

Deposed by whom? The Emperor?

[Shlomayo]

@vasilyjc1955

I have already discussed this issue with another E"O" apologist. Thanks for repeating points long discussed.

[Shlomayo]

@vasilyjc1955

"Pan-Orthodox-Councils" were what came after the Schismatic East became unable to convoke ecumenical councils due to the schism.

[Shlomayo]

@vasilyjc1955

The theory of reception is ahistorical. So much for your statement.

[vasilyjc1955]

@vasilyjc1955 I would like to clarify some of the information in this video. The Orthodox Church in general does not agree with "receptionism"and has no standard

" theory" on it. As far as not having an official position regarding," what makes a council ecumenical", this is not true.The principle that hierarchs can meet and formulate and make disciplinary statements and resolutions that are the will of God and accepted by the entire Church was established in the early church.

[vasilyjc1955]

@vasilyjc1955 We have had Pan-Orthodox Councils,Ecumenical Councils, within the Orthodox Church, and All-American Councils.We have a structure with regards to councils and "orthodoxwiki"is not the sole authority. As far as a "universal definition" apparently it hasn't been a necessity. Why the Orthodox need an official position on this is simple ludicrous. It must be stressed that Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy are structured very differently.