The Catholic Church is a Force for Good • ©2009 MMIX Intelligence2 (full program)

From the website of Intelligence² (used without permission) - October 19, 2009.

Arguing for the motion are Archbishop John Onaiyekan and Rt Hon Ann Widdecombe MP.

Archbishop Onaiyekan begins by insisting that if the Catholic Church were not a force for good, he would not have devoted his entire life to serving it. He points not only to the spiritual assistance that his Church provides, but also to the tangible aid that is given internationally through Catholic projects. He admits that Catholics are not infallible, but are by necessity sinners trying to improve themselves through their faith.

Ann Widdecombe suggests that in trawling all the way back to the Crusades to find something to blame the Catholic Church for, Christopher Hitchens merely demonstrates how flimsy his argument really is, insists that the actions of the Catholic Church in the past be judged with a degree of historical relativism. She then entreats us to imagine a world without the benefits of the Catholic Church, which provides hope, education and medical relief all over the globe.

Arguing against the motion are Christopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry.

Christopher Hitchens asserts that any argument trying to identify the merits of the Catholic Church must begin with a long list of sincere apologies for its past crimes, including the Crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the persecution of the Jews, and the forced conversion of peoples to Catholicism, especially in South America. He concludes by reminding the Archbishop that his own Church has been responsible for the death of millions of his African brothers and sisters, citing the Church's disastrous stance on Aids prevention, and the ongoing trials in Rwanda in which Catholic priests stand accused of inciting massacre during the 1994 genocide.

Stephen Fry concedes that his opposition to the motion is a deeply personal and emotional one. He criticises the Catholic Church, not only for the horrors it has perpetrated in the past, but also for its ideology, and for its sinister temerity to preach that there is no salvation outside of the Church. With two words he refutes Anne Widdecombe's suggestion that the Catholic Church does not have the powers of a nation state: The Vatican. He concludes by questioning whether Jesus, as a humble Jewish carpenter, would have approved of all the pomp and excess of the Catholic Church, and whether he would even have been accepted by such an arrogant organisation.

Before the debate 678 were for the motion, 1102 against and 346 undecided. After the debate 268 were for the motion, 1876 against and 34 undecided.

(Advanced appreciation is rendered for materials used without express permission of copyright owners - Tommy Peters)

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[NudaBee]

I've been looking for the full debate for awhile - this is great!

[tmpeters]

@NudaBee You're most welcome Nuda - copyright issues notwithstanding.

[alaw071]

As an atheist let me first say I wish there were more Catholic's like John Onaiyekan. If good could be the sole benefactor of religion I would support it regardless of truth. It is unfortunate that religion represents more than what John seeks to represent. For a good man transcends religion.

[earthypig]

@Jblod240 there is not strange religious dogma associated with " rest in peace" indeed the christians want their dead to " rise and go to heaven" indeed, i would argue that there are ideas in religions which are found inherent in humanity which the religions have hijacked.

[Jblod240]

I like how Hitchens proposes the abuse of children as proof if religious inherent failures, when public school abuses of the same stripe are coming out in DROVES in the past decade. More than that, if you do your homework you'll find that since the time in question, 1950 to present, the occurrences if such abuses are a dead heat among the catholic church and public education institutions. Just the facts. I never liked this or the old "body count" debate either for that matter.

[Jblod240]

Here we go with the oxymoronic "R.I.P. Hitchens" stuff again.  Please be courageous enough to adhere to your own dogma and stop hijacking religious, in this case Christian, prayer for atheistic advance. Atheism promotion does inherently create voids in humanistic terms...don't stoop so low as to steal from religion to fill them, it's unbecoming.

[paktia]

R.I.P Christopher, you intellectual beast.

[kenninast]

Never ever was any organised superstition a force of good. They are a force for spiritual greed and powermongering.

[finian4558]

the church is a decaying institution and has been for the past 1500 years. Their only saving grace are the adherents who cannot be faulted for subscribing to this universal farce.

[TrueShaitan]

I've seen a few clips of this debate before, it is nice to finally see the whole debate.