Re: The phantasmagorical, Magical, but meaningless, Membrane

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Watch these molecules dance:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=E8NHcQesYl8

Category:

Science & Technology

Tags:

• Objective
• intelligence
• better
• than
• subjective
• nonsense

[otonanoC]

Stuart Kaufman and his cohorts are now describing life forms as "effective dissipaters of gradients". I could quote also someone claiming that "the more complex an organism, the more effective it is at dissipating a gradient."

Anyways, all of this post-darwinian abiogenesis science must account for the lifelessness on planet Mars. Mars seems to be a ready-made laboratory ready to tell us about the conditions life requires outside of mere self-organization+thermodynami­cs.

[0ThouArtThat0]

I am as interested as you to see what we discover about geophysiology by studying Mars. It seems only some planets arise in niches where life can flourish, rather than fossilize. It is very possible that patches of bacterial-type life once lived for short periods on the surface of Mars, but could not get a hold on the planet's climate dynamics in time to stabilize a more permanent stint.

[zezt]

self organizing intelligence='matter'

Watts' "skin encapsulated ego" is a membrane dulled by dull ideas. It cannot feel. Cells 'cannot feel' because 'small-thinking-brain' thinks they 'crude'!

AIR 'cannot feel'. SPACE 'cannot fee' for same reasons. 'small-thinking-brain'.

what 'small-thinking-brain' wants, 'small-thinking-brain' gets!

[jogayot]

well, if you watched matt carefully this is video he pointed to himself... not long ago. i was never much into biology and psychology... more into physics, math, computers and a pinch of philosophy and literture, but having bumped into matt my thinking sortof converged and crystallized, lately (read: from last year).

[StevenErnest]

If matter does have a tendency to self-organize -- and I haven't read enough -- saying it is "due to its intelligence" is indeed anthropomorphizing, or at least stretching the definition of intelligence.

"...but if the universe did create us, don't we have reason to believe it is a human universe?" That's a big "if."

I think that for most life, existence is deterministic, but the wonder of humans is that we have self-awareness, reflection, thought, language -- we can guide our destiny.

[StevenErnest]

I say it is not yet science, because I don't see any scientifically verifiable arguments proving it. As in that inteview with Elisabet Shartoris. I agree that science needs to move in a more wholistic direction. I agree that the machine metaphor is not accurate. I appreciate the theoretical movement in this direction, I think it is valid.

[StevenErnest]

I don't recall reading that the odds against the appearance of life are quite that extremely improbable; that's new to me.

Life's been found in polar regions, ocean vents, and in caves of naturally toxic material, similar to the primordial Earth.

Stephen J. Gould said it's probably teeming in the crust's crevices. Life may exist on a moon of Jupiter, Europa, which is covered in ice, but is liquid water underneath, and heat would be generated by the tidal forces of Jupiter's gravity.

[StevenErnest]

But biological systems vary greatly in their degree of complexity; you are vastly more evolved and complex than most organisms; I'm only referring to the brain here.

You said that you cannot prove that I am aware of its/mine own doing? What is Behavioural Psychology? The entire field of Psychology!

(I just remembered, you should see a video I did reading a piece by Usula K. LeGuin; it's science fiction, written like a study of animal and plant art.)

[StevenErnest]

Okay, Matt, that's cool. I thought you might be getting tired of me, that I was becoming a pest, ;) But if you can put up with Gary...

I've been trying not to repeat myself. I was looking into this, and read that neuroscience is only very recently taking on the mystery of consciousness. I found an online article by Francis Crick and Christof Koch about this. What neurons are involved in what thought processes? This is called the neuronal correlates of consciousness, NCC.

[cruelfate45]

are we in control of our cells? are cells in control of their internal processes? what does "in control" mean? I agree we can't seperate ourselves from nature in terms of experience, but in terms of conscious thought, we most certainly can and do seperate ourselves from nature in order to examine it. what does that tell us about the relationship between arrangements of molecules? cells and their environment? human beings and the world? think about a mirror... good vid as usual

[patternsinchaos]

The way I see it, Geometric Inversion indicates the reason for the emergence of the circle and sphere as the primary forms of self-similar recursive duality. It indicates demonstrated that space curves back on itself- in other words what the spherical nature of the Earth might indicate about it's relationship to the rest of space.

[0ThouArtThat0]

Saying panexperientialism and process ontology is "not yet science" may not be the best way of looking at this. If the cosmos turns out not to fit into the machine metaphor of traditional science (which I think the last 100 years of data all but confirms), then it is science that must change, not the cosmos (at least if science wants to remain the most appropriate means of knowing reality).