The Shell Game

a response to Sam Harris

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLIKAyzeIw4

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• Harris
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[slimpickens7]

@Mike, I agree with you up to a point. What Sam says in most of his work is that, yes, social, psychological, economic, etc are all causes of fanaticism, terrorism, etc. BUT it is through certain religious thoughts that these misdeeds become not only justified but rewarded. You know the examples in both christianity and islam and its through flaws in the language of the doctrines and the dogmatic way they are treated that allow this. Religious dogma is to blame just not entirely.

[MikeSarno]

@ slimpickens7 watch?v=xvbmWygKwj4

[ballyboneman]

I've given you the references; go check them out.

[TLM80209]

"First of all ask yourself why you believe this to be true." I suspect it's true because everything I've read, heard and seen indicates that it is. Of course I'm willing to listen if you have another theory, and I'm sure that their were other motivators, but I conclude that the perpetrators main motives were THEIR interpretation of Islam.

[ballyboneman]

@TLM80209

"But wouldn't you agree that the religious beliefs of the perpetrators of 9-11 were probably the main motivators of their actions...."

First of all ask yourself why you believe this to be true. Then I would suggest researching the scholarly work of Robert Pape and Scott Atran which directly contradicts the assertions of Sam Harris and others. Check out the Beyond Belief conference 2006 where Atran confronts Harris directly. It's all a lot more complicated.

[TLM80209]

Also "...killing by fire..." and "...attacking civilians...". But the perpetrators of the 9-11 attacks did not believe in the Islam of the Islamic scholars you refer to. They were extremists. But I think I understand your point. You can't make a general statement about Islam or religion from a specific act. You can only make a statement about the religion or ideas of that specific person who carried out those acts.

[TLM80209]

I agree of course that Sam is generalizing the ideas for these horrible acts.  Which is as typical of atheism as it is with theism. We cannot be very specific about the motivators behind the 9-ll attacks because we can't question the attackers or truely know their motivation. We can only generalize and assume. But wouldn't you agree that the religious beliefs of the perpetrators of 9-11 were probably the main motivators of their actions and gave justification to carry out their attacks?

[MassLiberal1]

I agree w/ your criticisms of Sam Harris. His anti-religious beliefs cloud his better judgement. Plus he's a neocon who wants to bomb the hell out of Islamic nations just b/c he thinks Islam is dangerous. Personally, I liked the "old" atheists better then these "new" atheists who, although well meaning, have become sort of secular fundamentalists.

[MrVisions]

As long as there is man there will be manipulation. The tools used in that manipulation are commiserate with what the society of the time uses to coral it's citizenry. I f it is nationalism then it will be used, if it is religion it will be used, if it is sustenance and consumerism they will be used. It is not so much what manipulates, but what, that can be used to manipulate.