anti-reformism, hypocrisy & Nirvana fallacies

A bird in hand is worth 10 in the bush -- A living dog is better than a dead lion.

Category:

Education

Tags:

• reformism
• anarchism
• capitalism
• state
• welfare

[Chomskyan]

Well said, Jonathan.

Just like to add though, I just don't see why it has to be a choice BETWEEN reform and building alternatives, when we are perfectly capable of doing BOTH at the SAME time, in a perfectly consistent manner.

[vdmerwe]

ow, i've also heard the allegory of the state and a dog-owner or work-master. everytime we somehow encourage it to do something for us - perhaps pass pro-union legislation or legalize gay marriage - we are not only legitimising our own submission, but it means that the state now has a percievedd high-ground, and we have a debt to them.

[highervis]

There are documented examples of how they prey on minorities, are frequently run by pedophiles and consist of a large amount of pedophiles, run child sex slave rings, etc. unimaginably horrible stuff under the guise of a supposed social safety-net.

[highervis]

What you might be overlooking though is that state so-called welfare can be predatory and detrimental to poor and working people not just beneficial. A big example which is rarely discussed on the left (as far as I know) is the CPS (Child Protective Service).

[TasinAkiwo]

1st: I never said capitalists must die, but that capitalism must die.

2nd: Yes, I do think that the state must be destroyed. My argument is that if one destroys the state but keeps the capitalist economic structure, or the reverse, one will inevitably end up with the other re-emerging.

[thorsmitersaw]

Not that i am apologizing for many cpaital owners who utilize state vilence to acheive their ends. But the position is illogical. Anyone who utilizes state (or other) violence to achieve their ends in this manner is guilty of extortion.

[thorsmitersaw]

"qualitative difference in power" - elaborate

How can you tell me this: "you are right about capitalists deriving their power from the state" and then follow it with this: "a time in history in which capitalists have not used the state to maintain their oligarchy?" and then declare holders of capital (a form of property whose distinction is shaky at best) must die? By your words the state is what must be destroyed, if you truly believe that it is the medium which they obtain abusive power

[TasinAkiwo]

Still doesn't deal with the qualitative difference in power.

Also, you are right about capitalists deriving their power from the state. Tell me though, has there ever been a time in history in which capitalists have not used the state to maintain their oligarchy? Capitalism and the state are inseparable. In order to kill one you have to kill both.

[thorsmitersaw]

The immense bargaining power that many capital owners have is derived through state erected barriers to others obtaining the same capital in any manner. It creates an artificial oligopoly condition.

I do not oppose a man performing labor for another in exchange for items or services but I am opposed to the fact that all alternatives are restricted or explicitly illegal. And the 'oligoposony' conditions Brad Spangler has discussed before.

[TasinAkiwo]

That is an inherent part of capitalism but it is not the only part I am opposed to. I am opposed to the qualitative difference in power between the capitalist class and the working class, which manifests itself most obviously in the hierarchy of the capitalist enterprise. Another way to say this is that I am opposed to the idea that one has to sell ones life to another in order to survive. Capitalists are no more necessary to run society than a tape worm is to run your digestive system.

[thorsmitersaw]

I never made a statement that claimed I have a right to harm others.

How do you define capitalism? You do realize that like socialism, it has about a billion freaking definitions, some thicker than others, right?

If by capitalism you mean a political system in which wealth is aggregated to a few through state violence then yes I am opposed to capitalism as anyone else.

[TasinAkiwo]

Your right to swing your fist stops at another man's nose. Is this slavery? Or do you agree that you don't have the right to cause harm to someone else just because you have the ability or desire to?

Capitalism is nothing more than thieves and parasites at the top leeching the wealth of society from those who actually do the work necessary for society to operate. A system in which this does not happen isn't slavery, but the utmost amount of freedom.