Re: Egoist ethics: A cursory exploration

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[Individualistico]

It seems you grant that initiation of force should be considered acceptable under these situations that you call rare. But I don' t think they're rare. I think they're a normal part of life. Watch my video "Extortion begets Extortion" where I try to try to show that regular and systematic initiation of force may be necessary to survive.

[ProximaMinor]

No, only under the situation in which you do not have an alternative. I am aware that these situations are not rare in societies where slavery still exists; or in societies which are ruled by tyrants. However, in free societies initiation of force must be barred. And never is the initiation of force needed UNLESS you are being coerced into doing so.

I do not need to coerce my way into a business much like I don't need to coerce others to buy my products.

[Individualistico]

Are you saying that taxation is not initiation of force because if you're doing it for the reasons I state in that video, you're being coerced?

[ProximaMinor]

Taxation IS initiation of force. At the barrel of a gun you are being forced to pay for a product you may not want.

[Individualistico]

This is really hard to hear. Sounds like you need to turn up your microphone input level.

[ProximaMinor]

Yeah, sorry about that. I should probably buy a new camera that has a built in Microphone instead of my current rig...

[MCTMD1]

Close. An objectivist epistemology and metaphysics is a good foundation for a proper egoistic ethics and politics, but won't be complete without the rejection of the actual existence of freewill, the soul and spirit.

[swu880]

@MCTMD1

The cure for 1984 is the virtue & spirit of 1776 completed with objectivist individuality

[MCTMD1]

And what subversion, ignorance & naivety there is all around!!! Where going down, the way of 1984.

[swu880]

@MCTMD1

agreed- most great empires tend to fall not from the outside; but always fall first from the inside. Subversion, ignorance & naivity is often more deadly than raw brute force.

[MCTMD1]

Free society that respects individual interests is not in my self interest? I don't think so. Extortion is evil. OK, you mean some evil is not evil. Contradiction. Oppressive invaders are not going to be as powerful as a free well defended, by a voluntary tax paying people. The more free societies like Ancient Greece, Rome and the US fall from within, the more they consider extortion as moral. Then and only then can a barbaric invader conquer.

[Individualistico]

On second thought, even if it encompassed the whole world I would be opposed to it. But for other reasons, which is beyond the scope of this discussion.

[Individualistico]

You seem to have a premise that an absolutely free society is in your self interest. I don't believe it is in my self interest. I think taxation is necessary to maximize my protection. A totally free society would be easily overrun by oppressive invaders. It wouldn't last long enough to make like enjoyable. So I'm not in favor of an absolutely free society in the first place - unless it encompasses the whole world, which is a utopian position. And since it does not, extortion is not immoral.

[MCTMD1]

Retaliation, or self-defense (I include morally acceptable preemptive strikes here), may be necessary, though. I think it is clearly more important for you to read more Ayn Rand than it is for me to watch your video! But, I will. :)

[MCTMD1]

Impossible scenario, necessarily stealing on a regular basis. Stealing another's money, or initiating force, on a regular basis as a rule is never moral or possible in a free society. That's why I started my previous comment that way. Being forced by another negates your ability to choose and therefore morality is a concept that is necessary in a free or relatively free society, but impossible under coercion. Initiation of force in never necessary, but may be moral, under rare circumstances.

[Individualistico]

But what if stealing another's money on a regular basis is what is necessary to save your life? If so then it should be a general rule to support taxation for defense. You may be making a mistake thinking that initiation of force is not necessary for your survival. (See my video Extortion Begets Extortion for more on this).