Islam & Freedom: The Turkish Experience. Part 1 (1/5)

The Malaysia Think Tank London organised Ibn Khaldun Seminar 1 in Dublin on 10 November 2007. The speaker was Mustafa Akyol, a prominent Turkish writer and journalist. The seminar was divided into three sessions. This was the recording of the first session.

Category:

Education

Tags:

• Islam
• turkey
• classical
• liberalism
• mustafa
• akyol
• malaysia
• religon
• politics

[oliveparadise]

The same rules that applies to Europe applies to Turkey as well; Only lower class, low intelligence, elderly or seriously indoctrinated people are muslims nowadays, although they might state otherwise in public due to external pressure in our society which is not relevant in Europe.

[oliveparadise]

Just analyze the history of religions on Earth and if you're sincere with yourself you'll agree with that point. Science and reason has answered and contributed way more to the human civilizations within last century than religion has ever done. These are simple and sincere justifications based on historical and present facts around the world.

[oliveparadise]

@kahraman

Just look at Europe;Only lower class, low intelligence, elderly or seriously indoctrinated people are Christian nowadays.You imagine the future as a world of religions. I hope it will be a world of reason instead. Religion is always worse than reason. It leads to wars, it keeps people ignorant, it impedes scientific an social progress, and it make people live with very outdated moral and lifestyle principles.

The future of Europe is not freedom of religion but freedom from religion!

[kahraman]

@yuzk2 [2 of 2] I wish there was no bloodshed, injustice in this world. I wish that people wouldn't harm each other by various methods. However, sad truth is there are crimes committed by some people against others. And leaving these criminals untouched so the peace will be served is injustice and will lead to more harm itself unless there is an agreement reached between them. You yourself said there is nothing wrong fighting against people who are harmful. This is a state affair not personal.

[kahraman]

@yuzk2 [1 of 2] The verse 4:89 should be read as a part of the passage 4:88-4:92 as I posted in two parts because there was no space for the explanation after I have entered the translation of the verse 4:89. Have you read my message on the passage 4:88-4:92? This passage gives permission to fight against the harmful hypocrites unless they ask for peace. A peaceful agreement is to be sought however if this is not possible then you have to protect your people. This post has also the second part.

[yuzk2]

@kahraman You think that is ok? I think that's pretty sickening. It does exactly the opposite of promoting peace.

[kahraman]

@yuzk2 And the translation of 4:89 alone is "They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper."

[kahraman]

@yuzk2 4:89 is a part of the passage 4:88-4:92 which gives permission to fight against the hypocrites (people who pretends to be muslim) who has taken hostility against muslims and forbids from pursuing them if they have taken refuge in another state where there is a treaty or if they ask for peace. And the passage also asks not to take hypocrites as allies. In this case Quran only commands Muslims to fight hypocrites who practice oppression or persecution, or attack the Muslims.

[yuzk2]

@kahraman No there is nothing wrong with fighting against people who are harming you, that verse is not wrong in any way. What is your translation of "So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them" (4:89) ? I find it hard to see how any morals have been considered in that verse. Same with 7:80-84 & a hell of a lot more verses.

[kahraman]

@yuzk2 But you didn't answer my question. I rephrase my question. Is 2:193 a disgusting verse for you? What is your opinion on this verse? I have given the English translation in my previous post. I need to know your understanding. If you are against any kind of fight even if it is to protect yourself or someone else then we have a very different view from the beginning.