The Motivation of a River

perhaps you think will is an eddy or back current.

reply to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqohWhtkv6w

Category:

Nonprofits & Activism

Tags:

• natural
• philosophy
• relativistic
• skepticism
• will
• power
• utilitarianism
• politics
• social

[Charlesdance]

@pyrrho314 I’m lost for now, don’t have the will to carry this on and what have you.

[pyrrho314]

@pyrrho314 : side note: may people talk about outburst, e.g. of anger, vandalism, and tantrums as acts of the will (to do so) being too strong. My experience with that is that it feels not like controlled will, but out of control "will". That looks and feels "out of control". I'm talking moments where you feel "in control" not out. And it's not always good, like strong muscles aren't always used for good. Perhaps these are two types of will, but I tend to talk of the latter.

[pyrrho314]

@pyrrho314 : like I'm making a choice, since there is none? I think that's silly, because I believe, no offense, that you know what it is like to -feel- like you are making a choice. You also feel that first feeling is an illusion, or think it is at least, but that still means you know what it feels like to feel as if you have a choice, and are making it. So what's to not get when I say "when I feel that feeling I try to make it more vivid and strong?"

[pyrrho314]

@Charlesdance : no, it's not of equally little sense automatically, because will is a feature of a conscious experience and whatever you think about will the conscious experience is happening. Try it, substitute another quality.

Re strong vs free, no, I'm saying I think the term "free" is pretty incoherent for these purposes, and I want to talk about power, which is not "free" but is "bound" in some ways and not others. You are confused that I talk about what I do when I feel...

[pyrrho314]

@Charlesdance : I am saying what is perpetuating it is not the only question. The other question is simply why do you have a subjective experience... why and how would/could a deterministic universe, or whatever type of universe -we're- in, generate such a thing.

Who has enslaved mankind?  Greece, Rome, European Monarchs, etc. wtf are you asking? if you want to say it was their influences that caused, say, southern slave owners to do so, fine, it's a chain. so?

[Charlesdance]

@Charlesdance (2) people and I’m asking how these few have it and others don’t because I could substitute a different quality for what you’re identifying as will and make just as much or as little sense.

I’m still curious though because you didn’t say anything, are you saying that a stronger will is a freer will? I don’t understand when you talk of exercising will because you believe there’s an element of freedom and I just can’t see how such a thing would play out.

[Charlesdance]

@pyrrho314 (1) I’m not saying the system has intention, I’m saying it’s a dead unthinking thing that’s perpetuating itself like a dead unthinking gene, it exploits us for its own ends successfully.

I’m not saying name individuals, I’m asking who these few you’ve stated are wilfully subjugating mankind. The bourgeoisie? You’re talking about a quality in

[pyrrho314]

@Charlesdance : I think it's ridiculous you don't think you can make your will stronger by exercising it correctly. When you say the system has managed to... that sounds like you are saying the system has intention, and achieved it... that doesn't seem as likely as it being people that built the system that achieved it.

[pyrrho314]

@Charlesdance : If I can't name the few then it didn't happen? I see that people have oppressed people, who it is has evolved over time, but the pattern remained as the individuals came and went. Did I say it was inhereted? It's taken by war generally.

[Charlesdance]

@Charlesdance (2) Make will stronger by exercising it? A stronger will is a freer will? Is that what you’re saying? Because it’s ridiculous.

As far as your slavery idea and what do I see? I see a powerful system that has managed to exploit every single person, I do not see a few people exploiting others, everyone is in the same game. With determinism there aren’t bad guys or good guys, just people who do well and others who don’t.