MoonFaker: No Crater Addendum: Critique #03: Soft Landing

In this episode of my critique of Jarrahs No Crater Addendum, we correct several mistakes that Jarrah makes regarding (1) the distance between the nozzle and lunar surface for each Apollo mission, (2) the time between contact, touchdown, and engine shutdown for the Apollo 11, (3) the expectation of and reasons for finding loose debris under the LMDE, and (4) a practical approach to the fallacies of Jarrahs brick calculations.

Video Response to:

MoonFaker: No Crater Addendum. PART 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tZbzZxRXnw

MoonFaker: No Crater Addendum. PART 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYn6dYv6ZFE

Sources:

Jarrah White calculates moon's gravity to be 216th Earth gravity (Part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ozg4eM_VVE

Jarrah White calculates moon's gravity to be 216th Earth gravity (Part 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI2T-Lm-aiI

Jarrah White calculates moon's gravity to be 216th Earth gravity (Part 3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT_h5It0Fvo

Visibility During the Lunar Landings
http://www.workingonthemoon.com/LMLandingDustObscur.html

Outgassing and Dust Lofting from the Lunar Surface after Descent Engine Shutdown
http://www.workingonthemoon.com/WOTM-A17DustObscur.html

Lunar Module Descent Mission Design
http://www.ssdl.gatech.edu/Papers/Technical%20Papers/aiaa_2008-6939.pdf

Apollo Spacecraft News Reference (Lunar Module)
http://www.cs.indiana.edu/sudoc/image_30000061709352/30000061709352/pdf/lmnr2...

LM-5 Structures
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/a11LM5structures.pdf

LM Orientation Manual
http://er.jsc.nasa.gov/SEH/lemanual.pdf

AS11-44-6581
http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/IMAGES/LARGE/GPN-2000-001210.jpg

Overall view of the commander's station
http://heroicrelics.org/cradle/896x600/dsc35171.jpg

Overall view of the lunar module pilot's station
http://heroicrelics.org/cradle/896x600/dsc35172.jpg

Sliced bread
http://armswideopen.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/sliced-bread.jpg

Category:

Education

Tags:

• Debunk
• MoonFaker
• Exhibit D
• JW Studios
• Jarrah White
• Moon Hoax Conspiracy Theory
• Space Program
• Moon Landings
• Apollo
• NASA
• Contact Light
• Shutdown
• Touchdown
• Rocket Engine
• Thrust
• Force
• Area
• Exhaust
• Loose Debris
• Nozzle
• Brick

[ViperWK]

@philwebb59 Just to clarify, so what your saying is that the LEM pads were touching the ground and the engine blast proceeded to remove all of the surrounding soil from around the pads leaving a small cluster of original soil still under the pads. Sort of like how a Mesa is formed (in principle) ? Or say if you went and put your foot into a sand box, washed the sand away with a hose but you would still be left with a clump of sand under your shoe and you would appear to be standing higher ?

[ViperWK]

@philwebb59 Sorry, i was chasing the wrong rabbit there. When you said the ledges were caused by erosion i thought you meant this was due to the soil under the nozzle being eroded and then blowing up against the side of the pads causing those mounds. In theory soil could hit the rim of the pad then bounce to the ground near the contact point of the pad, then compoundly start piling up, much like say when you see sand piled up against one side of power pole after a sand storm.. 

[philwebb59]

@ViperWK Apollo 11 landed. The pads were on the ground. The LM slid south (contact probes all point north), with the engine still running. Any dust plowed up by the north pad would get blown away by the exhaust. Regolith around the pad, not being held down by the pad, would get blown away. That is what I see. The east pad has noticeable buildup of regolith on its south side. In AS11-40-5918 you can see some scouring alongside the contact probe that may have been caused by the north pad sliding,

[philwebb59]

@ViperWK For my "theory" to be correct, the Apollo 14 LM had to drop a little after the engine shut off and the Apollo 11 LM had to be on the ground before the engine shut off. Every mission was different. No two landings were exactly the same. My "theory" is not that the engine pushed regolith against any pad, but simply that regolith went flying away from the engine. The force of the exhaust did not hold dust against any pad; it blew the dust around and away from the pads.

[philwebb59]

@ViperWK #2 If you really want to show me a pic of snowplowing, use AS11-40-5926. This clearly shows regolith piled up alongside the edge of the east pad. The north pad is in the top of this photo. The LM slid south, so the buildup on the inside of the north pad was minimal since the exhaust was blowing it away as the LM slid, forming the ledge.

[philwebb59]

@ViperWK #1 Okay? I went to that link and got a "We love free-wallpaper-ic" advertisement. From the description it's probably AS11-40-5927. You're looking at the south (left) and east (right) struts. The pads are both slightly hidden by the slight ridge in the foreground. The north strut (the one in AS11-40-5920) is on the opposite side of the LM. You can clearly see that the north pad is resting on top of the ledge.

[philwebb59]

@ViperWK The photo of Apollo 14 is consistent with the engine shutting off before the pads touched and the LM then slid into place. I never suggested that the exhaust blew regolith up against any pad. What mechanism would make the regolith stop and pile up on the inner edges of the pads, when it should keep on going around the pads?

[ViperWK]

@philwebb59 Just another quick point regarding AS11-40-5920 . When the LEM came down and made contact with the ground that pad should of sat flat on the ground and "then" been blasted with soil. If so, the soil wouldn't have been able to go "under" the pad as the pad was already firmly placed on the ground, rather the soil would have been blown against it. If a plowing action had occurred and the weight distribution on that leg was light the pad would of slightly ridden up on top of the soil.

[ViperWK]

@philwebb59 To summarise, for your theory to be correct both the Apollo 11 & 14 photo's would have to show soil piled up on the inner edge's of "every" pad. They don't. Two pads in each LEM photos "don't" show "any" soil banked up on their "inner" edge which would be impossible under your blast theory. On looking at the churned/bulging appearance of the soil, the scrap marks behind the pads, and the soil being on the same side of every pad, these soil ledges were from a plowing/scraping action.

[ViperWK]

@philwebb59 Here is a good photo of the Apollo 11 LEM.. freewallpaperpic(dotcom)/viewe­r/wallpaper.php?/apollo11/1600­/Apollo11_5927_NASA It clearly also shows two pads having soil piled up on their "outer" edges, consistent with a sliding motion of the LEM . Regarding that AS11-40-5920 photo, it shows churned up soil that billows/bulges out from the base of the pad, consistent with a plowing action.. If you look behind the pad you can see where this pad had scraped the surface..?