Part 5 of 32 Senate Judiciary Committee with Alberto Gonzales. Chairman Patrick Leahy begins the questioning. 7/24/07
KEEP IN MIND: Gonzales was given each and every question he would be asked beforehand. Nothing was a surprise - there was absolutely NO "GOTCHA!"
Transcript of this portion of the hearing:
LEAHY: Thank you, Mr. Attorney General. And your full statement, of course, will be made part of the record.
We have documents that we have not in answer to a request made by this and other committees, but obtained through Freedom of Information Act lawsuits. They indicate that you received reports in 2005 and 2006 of violations in connection with the Patriot Act, abuses of national security letters. The violations apparently included unauthorized surveillance, illegal searches and improper collection of data.
LEAHY: But when you testified before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence in April of 2005, you sought to create the impression that Americans' civil liberties and privacies were being effectively safeguarded and respected.
And you said, and I quote, "The track record established over the past three years has demonstrated the effectiveness of the safeguards of civil liberties put in place when the act was passed."
Then I sent you written questions. And earlier this month, you responded about when you first learned of problems with national security letters. But in those responses, you didn't mention these earlier reports of problems.
So my question is this. As you know, I've written a number of these questions to you in advance so that you will be able to answer. Would you like to revise or correct your April 2005 testimony to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, which was misleading, or your July 6, 2007, response to this committee's written questions, related?
You care to revise either of them?
GONZALES: Thank you for the question, Mr. Chairman.
And I can understand the confusion of concern about my prior statements, which, of course, were made in connection with the discussions about reauthorization of the Patriot Act, and were also made in the context of the I.G.'s investigation of abuses under the Patriot Act, exercising his authority under the Patriot Act to investigate abuses.
And my comments reflect -- are similar to comments made by the director of the FBI...
LEAHY: I don't care if they're similar to anybody else. They're your comments that I'm concerned about. I'm not concerned about somebody else's comments. I'm concerned about yours. They seemed contradictory.
GONZALES: And my comments reflected the understanding, on my part, Mr. Chairman, that IOB violations -- which is what I want to refer to these, as IOB violations, referrals or violations made to the Intelligence Oversight Board -- that these do not reflect, as a general matter, intentional abuses of the Patriot Act.
LEAHY: Are you saying they're not abuses if they're not committed without malice? Is that what you're saying?
GONZALES: That's not what I'm saying.
(CROSSTALK)
GONZALES: Obviously, they're very, very -- and every such abuse, because it does constitute abuse, is in fact referred to the IOB and also is in fact referred to the Inspection Division at the FBI.
Now, the good news is that when the referral occurs, there is an examination and appropriate action is taken.
The other bit of good news is, as I have directed, that each IOB referral to the FBI will also be made simultaneously to the National Security Division. And the National Security Division is going to study these IOBs, make a semiannual report to me, and identify whether or not there are any trends there that we identify.
LEAHY: Well, let me ask you about that. Because I understand that approximately 500 -- and if you want to go back and elaborate on your answer, I will certainly give you time, because I don't think you've answered the question I asked.
LEAHY: But you keep talking about the Intelligence Oversight Board. These things are referred to it.
I understand that approximately 500 incidents are annually referred to the Intelligence Oversight Board, but the general counsel of the FBI hasn't received a single response from the board. I mean, I thought I was the only one that didn't get responses, but apparently 500 a year you don't get back a single response. The board has not sent forward a single report of potentially unlawful intelligence activities. But you talk about oversight system and report to that same board.
I mean, I -- you know, is this, "Oh, gosh, we have a problem. We won't tell anybody about it. We'll send it to somebody who will file it away and nothing will ever be heard again, so therefore we have no problems"? It's almost an Alice in Wonderland situation.
GONZALES: I think you've misunderstood my response, Mr. Chairman.
What I said, or certainly intended to say, was the fact that it's referred to the IOB doesn't mean that it stops there. It is also sent to the Inspections Division and appropriate action is taken.
We've also instituted another check by involving the National Security Division so that they can also identify any trends and make suggestions in policies or training so that we can address these kinds of issues.
LEAHY: In April 2005, when you said, "The track record established in the past three years demonstrates the effectiveness of the safeguards" -- that there, basically there hadn't been any violations, was that correct or not? Had there been violations?
GONZALES: What I can say is...
LEAHY: Three years before you testified, had there been any violations?
GONZALES: The violations...
LEAHY: Yes or no?
GONZALES: A violation of IOB may not be a violation of the Patriot Act. In fact, the inspector general, I think, has indicated that.
And, Mr. Chairman, my view and the views of other leadership in the department is in fact when we're talking about abuses of the Patriot Act, we're talking about intentional, deliberate misuse of the Patriot Act, not when some agent writes down the wrong phone number in a national security letter.
And, of course, whenever a mistake like that happens, of course we address it and appropriate action is taken.
LEAHY: Such as?
GONZALES: We institute training for -- additional training. It's a question of providing additional guidance, providing additional training or disciplinary action against the agent.
LEAHY: Well, (inaudible) ask you this. We have 93 United States attorneys. Only 70 have been confirmed by the Senate. Any idea when we're going to get -- six have just been sent up -- when we're going to get the 17 remaining ones?
GONZALES: We are working as hard as we can with the White House and with members of Congress so that we can go through the vetting process, evaluation process, so we can make recommendations to the president.
The full intent is that, as I've committed to this committee, is that we are going to have Senate-confirmed U.S. attorneys in these positions.
LEAHY: I would hope so, because you tried to do that backdoor thing you got inserted into the law. And the Congress has repealed that because of revulsion (ph) of the use of it. The president signed that.
My last question is this: As you know, if either the Senate or House finds somebody in contempt, they have to refer it to the U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia, who has to then not necessarily prosecute, but at least present the contempt citation to a grand jury to determine whether criminal charges are appropriate.
LEAHY: Last week, the administration said that the U.S. attorney wouldn't be allowed to carry out that.
So my question to you is, if a house of Congress certified a contempt citation against former or current officials for failing to appear or comply with a congressional subpoena, would you permit the U.S. attorney to carry out the law and refer the matter to a grand jury, as required by 2 USC 194, and, therefore, fulfill the constitutional duty to faithfully execute the law, or would you block the execution of the law?
GONZALES: Mr. Chairman, your question relates to an ongoing controversy which I am recused from. I can't -- I'm not going to answer that question.
LEAHY: Is there anybody left in the Department of Justice who could answer the question?
GONZALES: Of course there is.
LEAHY: Who?
GONZALES: With respect to these kind of decisions...
LEAHY: Who?
GONZALES: ... will be made by the solicitor general.
LEAHY: Well, then we may ask him whether on this refusal to prosecute that the administration talked about, whether that extends to the executive branch lying to Congress,or perjury or destruction of evidence or obstruction of justice. Because, Mr. Attorney General, those are going to be real issues. They're not going to be -- they're not going to be just debating points.
Thank you.
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Appreciate your effort, cspander. Don't have cable at home, so I'm happy to find this on YouTube.
wjeremy15 4 years ago
Thanks. Whenever I hear CSpan viewers call in & do the mantra "Thanks for CSpan," I get really pissed off. CSpan is in such cahoots with our corrupt politicians - This was live only on CSpan 3. Coverage of our govt should be on TV channels that you can pick up with rabbit ears. You shouldn't have to pay for cable, premium yet, to get this.
cspander 4 years ago
Please post more!
DyeVad 4 years ago
After a 3-hour break for sleep, the CSpander is back on the job. The rest of the hearing is will be up shortly. Keep watching!
cspander 4 years ago