1st personal and transpersonal consciousness

Francisco Varela discusses the taboo in science about subjectivity, as well as the Tibetan/Buddhist tradition of reincarnation.

Category:

Science & Technology

Tags:

• francisco
• varela
• buddhism
• consciousness
• science
• subjectivity
• objectivity

[formless777]

This Francisco Varela doesn't properly understand the philosophy of subjectivity and objectivity. I also haven't heard him say one thing which isn't a misunderstanding of Scientific Method. As to his grasp of Vajrayana Philosophy, even that is dubious. All in all, I am highly critical of what he has to say as it seems founded in an enthusiastic ignorance. Consciousness is just a chemical mechanism btw, albeit a very complex and fascinating one.

[0ThouArtThat0]

@formless777 Who is it that knows that consciousness is a chemical mechanism? Who is fascinated by the complexity of this mechanism? Who is it that properly understands the relation between subject and object? Is there a special kind of consciousness capable of knowing the truth, and other kinds which stray?

[KevinSolway]

There's a major flaw in his argument. He argues that there is a "subtle consciousness", which is conscious, and that it's consciousness continues after death. But there is no evidence that this happens. There's no denying that streams of cause and effect find continuation, but it doesn't follow that consciousness continues, or re-arises out of that stream. Therefore, this guy is lost deep in fantasy. All consciousness is "I" consciousness - that's the whole point of consciousness.

[0ThouArtThat0]

Varela wasn't arguing for it, but merely stating the position of a what he believes is a respectable wisdom tradition. I think "consciousness" is a misleading word to use when talking about the subtle form of awareness that might survive death, because it implies intentionality (consc. of some object, ie, a duality). He shouldn't have used it.

I'll post a video response to explain how I interpret reincarnation. That which is aware of all phenomena in us does not die b/c it was never born...

[KevinSolway]

I don't think this particular line of thinking is a respectable wisdom tradition, since it is based on serious flaws. You mention a "subtle awareness that might survive death", but awareness always comes with an "I", which is aware (even though the "I" is only a logical construct). As I understand it, the "subtle mind" refers to the *causes* of mind, and which under-lie mind, and which give rise to mind. These causes are scattering all the time, such as through normal sexual reproduction.

[0ThouArtThat0]

I explain my position in the response I just posted to "Nonsense in Buddhism," but I will repeat here that a type of awareness seems to be possible without "I" or "objects." This pure, empty awareness doesn't exactly "survive" death, because it was never born. Reincarnation just implies that within every body a pure awareness of this sort witnesses both the incarnation and death.

[sunwalked]

The cat was very good at being a cat.

[divinegod123456]

@0ThouArtThat0

Is the concept of knowledge defined by questions? Who invented "questions"?

We are able to ask questions because we know the answers.

Questions and the concept that questions need to have an answer has been created by brains that could invent words.

Is brain the instrument that will help me understand the universe, I don't know

We have only a few million words to think, to question, to find answers to those questions, to communicate to ourselves. We are poor, believe me!

[77rogerino33]

FRANCISCO VARELA è uno dei personaggi della scienza contemporanea che più mi afascina, soppratutto per le sue idee innovatrici nonchè per la sua capacita di congiugare i piu svariati rami del sapere umano, siano essi scientifici che non. Descanza en paz caro Francisco Varela, con ammirazione da Perù.

[FleshMob]

@0ThouArtThat0

Well, chemical mechanism, man just said it! :)

[Saiaton]

Quantum physics takes it as read that observation affects experiment and this has been shown many times. Recent experiments look as if this even works backward in time!

[lostangel912]

Is there a 'self?

[ApeShallNevaKillApe]

I really don't understand the difference between 1st person and 3rd person science? Anyone care to explain? With a clear and concise answer? Give some examples?

[formless777]

@0ThouArtThat0

As to truth. You say the word as if there is only one truth. No consciousness begins life in a state of knowing anything much, truth like all other matters is a learned process developed over centuries by dedicated and acute minds who seek to know why things are as they are. In this area the scientific method has the best results and is the most tested and reliable of all methods.

[formless777]

@0ThouArtThat0

Consciousness can be totally altered by chemistry to the point where the imaginary seems real. We can link the collapse of elements of consciousness to the failure of specific brain organs. Consciousness is not disembodied, it is a wholly material phenomenon. This has all been discovered by Neuroscience.

The relationship between subject and object which FV gets wrong is that he presupposed that they are opposites, and that science is wrong to discard subjectivity.

contd...