More On Determinism - Part 2 Of 2

Just expanding on my first video on Free Will and Determinism. A lot of the response I've gotten from people has been dealing with Quantum Mechanics, and that this randomness points more toward a mechanism for Free Will. I don't see that it's valid.

Even if we were to account for QM, and to say that quantum effects had any impact on the macro world, this wouldn't give us an "out" as far as Free Will goes. You could only say that we were then bound by randomness, instead of by physical law.

Anyway, I could be completely wrong here, as I am not an expert in QM, or physics, nor am I a scientist. I'm open to alternative explanations...

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• Free Will
• Determinism
• Life
• Choices
• Science
• Quantum Mechanics
• Reason
• Philosophy

[KenChamberlain]

The deterministic view was probably most simply stated by Simon Pierre Laplace, early in the nineteenth century, who said that a sufficient intelligence, if given the positions and velocities of all the particles in the universe, could compute the universe's entire future and past.

[TheSkepticalAtheist]

@KenChamberlain

So, I'm wondering if the lack of the possibility of such a being necessarily implies that because we don't know what decisions we will make, we have "Free Will" because our future decisions can't be calculated; not because the aren't calculable, but because we don't possess a method to calculate them?

[KenChamberlain]

@TheSkepticalAtheist I can't see how that really makes a difference.

[TheSkepticalAtheist]

@KenChamberlain

It may make a difference in that we would need to understand whether or not there is a difference between something being "unknowable," and something which cannot be known simply because of a lack of means of acquiring that knowledge.

But, then again, I may be just over-analyzing the situation.

[KenChamberlain]

@TheSkepticalAtheist It is my view, that everything is in theory knowable, given the means [ Laplace's "sufficient intelligence", super computer etc.] even though the means is not obtainable.

[TheSkepticalAtheist]

Right. I guess really the social fear would be that once people realize they aren't responsible for their own actions, like I said, those borderline-criminals would do things they wouldn't have normally done.

But, it's not like our justice system would just disappear. Realizing we don't have Free Will may modify how we deal with criminals, but there wouldn't be anarchy... I don't think.

[trick0171]

Just as science is important, I don't think we can evolve for the betterment without removing the psychological "dogma" of free will.

Anyway...keep thinking about it. Ask yourself the reasons people might take the idea of not having free will to a "bad" level. Are they reasonable or rational reasons? Or are they entirely psychological based on a misunderstanding of what it may mean and their current psychology? :)

[trick0171]

I agree we need to do so carefully and with clear explanation of the implications (part of what my book is about doing), but that is only due to our current poor "free will" psychology...and not any reasonable grounds. In the long run there are extreme and important benefits for humanity to understand this fact of life, and I am convinced that we are ready for that step (if done so carefully). (MORE)

[TheSkepticalAtheist]

I'd be interested to read your work. But, then again, that's because I have no choice but to want to.

The question I'm currently pondering is the idea that, if we actually promote this idea that we aren't responsible for our actions, what are the social impacts of that?

If for some reason we're wrong, will this inspire borderline criminals to take actions they wouldn't otherwise engage in? But then, how would you know? It seems like a special pleading argument whichever way you look at it.

[trick0171]

Not only is free will impossible, it is logically absurd.

It is also very important for people to begin to understand this lack of free will. We need to start removing personal blame as well as blame of others, understand the importance of memes, fixing things at base of causality, and removing the egocentricity of people for the betterment of all sentient creatures.

I have started writing a book on this important topic.