Christian Forgiveness & The Emperor's New Clothes

Jay Smith states that Muslims need a bigger God, based upon the fact that the Christians believe that God became a man and Muslims believe that God didnt (cant - he states) become a man. Is the phenomena of becoming a man a sign of a greater god? Some observations and comments.

PLEASE NOTE: that I did not try and deal with the frankly silly remarks (considering the library of books on Islam on his shelves - I recommend reading them) that Jay makes:

"The Muslim God is Omnipresent" - Which is not a Muslim position. A very basic error about Islam.

"The Muslim God is totally other" - This is a clear 'personal relationship' jibe. Again I recommend reading the books on those shelves. Quran 50:16 "We verily created man and We know what his soul whispereth to him, and We are nearer to him than his jugular vein."

"God cant do this or that" or "God can do anything" - No Muslim states what God can or can not do, but that God does what befits His Majesty and God has Power over all things. It is below the Majesty of God to become a creature and die.

"Arab God" - As if God has a nationality?! Jesus (pbuh) was a Middle-Eastern man with a beard and wore a robe and the God of the Bible apparently only sent Prophets to the Jews, yet Jay ascribes not the epitaph of Jewish God and would claim that the God of the BIble is for all Mankind. Quite hypocritical.

The God that the Muslims pray to is the same God that Jesus (pbuh) prayed to. The God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and so on (pbut).

The Bible states: "God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?" Numbers 23:19

Did God then change His mind and then become a man and the son of man, throughout the OT and the NT?

Of course no Rabbi would accept Jays anthropological claims about the OT.

Jays video is a verbatim repeat of an older video:

"Yahweh, great & Omnipotent God vs. Allah, little & distant"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aigMjUiGFjk

He even makes the same basic errors about Islam. Its a shame that Jay couldnt respond to those that refuted him then, or now.

Peace, fot

ADDITION:

If you wish to help Muslims get out of Islam then please do so, your approach isnt remotely effective. Simply because what you claim about Islam and Muslims is not true.

I will help you because I am nice like that. Muslims are not Christians because they do not believe:

1) God became a man to Kill Himself to Pay Himself the Price of sin that He Set that was too high for mankind to pay, because God Himself could not simply Forgive Sin.

2) Trinity. Enough said.

Explain.

Peace, fot

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[stronzo5785]

This video is about trinitarian theology, not Jay Smith's video. I'll remind you...Jay made a video asking why Allah is unable to incarnate himself, as a human being, and asking consequently why people worship a being who is correspondingly imperfect.

Please...try to stay on topic.

[thefotfoundation]

@stronzo5785

Thanks for the reminder but your assuming that Jays question was a valid one i.e. that a god that becomes a man is superior or as you imply perfect.

I examined the basis of the claim i.e. trinitarian theology and demonstrated that the "need" to become a man as being a Inability to Forgive Sin. This becoming a man is therefore not a sign of superiority or perfection but a sign of weakness and imperfection.

[stronzo5785]

You misstated that Jay believes that the Christian understanding of God is greater than the Muslim understanding of God. That's inaccurate...they're merely different.

There are many excellent books that fully explain the trinitarian structure of God. You just won't entertain this notion and read these works...you are simply willfully ignorant of this body of work.

You haven't addressed any of the points addressed in Jay's videos...you jumped subjects, and attacked Christianity. Try again.

[thefotfoundation]

@stronzo5785

Did you watch jays video? The whole point of it was to claim that the Christian God is greater/bigger than the Muslim God based upon the incarnation as a man.

If my responding to the basis of the claim (becoming a man is a sign of greatness) as being fasle as it shows weakness (inability to forgive sin) is attacking Christianity, then so be it.

[ehsanul]

fot is correct, you misunderstood me, but no need to apologize for that. I just hope you realize that what I explained, and what fot here has been explaining, is very much what you're asking for, that victims of crimes be accounted for. And they are in Islam. Total forgiveness must include forgiveness from a crime's victim and not just from God. And if the victim has not forgiven wrong done to him, then the punishment for the crime would surely be dealt out. Do you still have any objections?

[Smartguy561]

We need to make a correction here: The God the muslims pray to IS NOT the same

God that Jesus prayed to. They are both different in character and attributes. First of All, Jesus IS the God that Isreal and Christians pray to- Yahweh. Muhamed is not Allah, just his prophet. Jesus is not only the son of God, but God himself. The Christian God died to redeem his creation. It is through grace. You change the concept, you change the God! (Just stating facts,I am not bashing muslims)

[krononomikon]

7) And again you are correct about forgiveness, because Jesus says "forgive, and you will be forgiven", and also, "all sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven, but whoever sins against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."

Paul said the Holy Spirit is given as a first installment, and it all makes sense, because we will be resurrected with a spiritual body (even as Jesus was flesh and bone, though spiritual) without taint or temptation, tear or sadness :) only peace, joy, and love in Him

[krononomikon]

6) Indeed you ARE correct about atonement! This is how we believe: all flesh has been groaning since the beginning, and has been under the curse of death since the fall. Atonement needed to be made for the soul, since God has ALREADY cursed flesh with death. Therefore, it's NECESSARY that EVERY MAN DIE ONCE! Also, for the atonement to be made, there must be spotless Lamb's blood - Jesus had the true life of God in Him, so it would be impossible for Eternal Resurrection without such a sacrifice

[krononomikon]

5) Jesus is not crucified: that He was raised for assurance that that God appointed Him as Judge and King, and that we have the hope of the resurrection. Also, who can see God's face and live? (Exodus) Yet, Jesus knew Him beforehand, and also went up to Him body and all afterwards. How could that be done in a mortal, natural body? Also, how could He have the Spiritual body unless it was slain and resurrected?

To believe that would go against not only His mission, but the prophecies of Him

[krononomikon]

4) ie., "to Him, every knee shall bow", and also elsewhere, "the kingdoms of the world have become the Kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ!" spoken of in Ezekiel and explained in Revelation 11. This is the resurrection at the last Trumpet sound. So when He has put all His enemies under His feet, then He will reign as the everlasting King (Daniel). Then, "many will be raised up: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt". So this is why we are not able to believe that...

[krononomikon]

3)...many things happened: the blood of the perfect man (signified by the lambs without blemish) might be shed to atone for our souls, because we are wicked from the birth, being creatures of flesh are tempted to fall into it, that He took upon Himself the wrath of God that it could be satiated, and that be the Paschal Lamb, so that those who wash their clothes in His blood might have death pass over them.

Now remember the New Covenant in Jeremiah? In that day, EVERYONE will know Him...

[krononomikon]

2) ...we have it that the flesh has in itself the sinful nature. The body can't live forever, and so when our time expires, we cease. We give up the spirit, the breath of God that gives life, and our soul sleeps. You know how Paul said "the Son of God became the son of man so that the sons of men might become the sons of God"? This is also what we mean when we say, "He bears our iniquities", because He Who knew no sin was made flesh to be "sin" for us, so that, when the perfect man was killed...

[krononomikon]

1)There's a little bit of a misconception going around, and it has to do with the theology. To understand, like you said, a scrutinization DOES have to be made between atonement and forgiveness, +1 for that! Remember that the blood God has given, because the life is in the blood, was to be "for the atonement of the soul". Then there is the punishment of the body. Adam was created in God's image, but fell and he was to return to the dust that he came. We didn't do any "sin" to die as well, but...

[stronzo5785]

@thefotfoundation...you still missed the point. Whether or not Allah is able to incarnate, Allah would refuse, because it's "beneath" Allah. Allah is aloof and capricious, and forgives based on whim rather than objective standards of justice.

That's Jay's point, friend...Yahweh so loves the world, that He Himself came to satisfy the demands of the law, the very definition of what He created before the fall of Adam. Allah is unwilling to do this, and is therefore incapable of this sacrifice.

[stronzo5785]

@thefotfoundation...the question is indeed valid. The God of the Bible, a different being than that described by the Quran, was willing to incarnate to satisfy the need for justice, justice demanded by the rebellion and evil brought about by man imagining himself equal to God. Jay's original assertion is deeply consistent, and you are trying to refute this by misstating Jay's point. I believe that you are strawmanning Jay, the only way to make a dent in his argument.