Re: The Dumbest Generation?

sorry, just voice...

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[DirkMcQuigly]

Try READING the book before passing judgement upon it. It had much more to say regarding the state of the state educational acheivement of your generation aside from the location of Iraq...

[cypherphage]

Do you know what cout does in c? Do you know what edianess is or how to read hexadecimal or what a page fault error is? Perhaps you could tell me what a double float is...if not, you probably don't program but does that make you stupid? No, people learn information relevant to their careers and interests. That said, I doubt any of you geezers were too sagacious at my age, what with your "Regan Revolution" bullshit and the "War on Drugs".

[DirkMcQuigly]

With that said, I fully understand that people learn information relevant to their careers and interests, but this in no way absolves them of gaining the BASIC skills needed to enter the work force or function in society without the rest us having to pick up the slack, 'cause your generation's basic literacy isn't cutting it.

[cypherphage]

I suppose upon further though, I am not sure I still agree with my original contentions in whole. I am not yet convinced that this generation is less intelligent than those prior of the same age, though it is certainly possible.

I will reassert that bad teachers and a society obsessed with status are at least large contributors to the problems that do exist, I am uncertain about the current utilization of technology, and poor geography is still at worst indicative of larger problems.

[cypherphage]

I am curious what basic skills you are talking about. And other than my belief that Iraq's location is a small problem rather than a catastrophe unto itself, what if anything do you disagree with?

[DirkMcQuigly]

You just don't get it. I'm NOT talking about specialized knowledge, I'm SAYING they ALSO lack BASIC abilities.

"knowledge will only lead to rebelious thoughts"

Are you serious? So they should eschew education because they might wish to change the status quo?

I've ignore nothing. There are NO words that have undergone a "spelling" change and while definitions evolve, they retain original meanings far beyond a single generation. Your argument is apologetic drivel for illiteracy

[DirkMcQuigly]

And your argument is absurd. You're suggesting that because we don't travel there or speaking with someone on a daily basis, that we have no need to know where China is? But then because you don't see how not knowing is a disadvantage, it's not useful to know? Please, your generation has some of the LEAST cluttered brains of all time. Essentially what you're saying is that you'd be screwed without the internet, and that ONLY reason to know anything at all is so one can hold down a job...

[DirkMcQuigly]

First off, we ARE speaking about the American system, not the UK. And while I agree that one need not have expertise in to the extent you're portraying, IT IS critical that people have familiarity and a broad understand of many subjects beyond those allowing them to be employable. Otherwise you're unable to participate in society in any meaningful way.

Yes, a geographer does need to know where Iraq is located, just as someone who calls himself a mechanic should know how to change the oil...

[DirkMcQuigly]

But like many young people, you've mistaken information retrieval with actual acquisition of knowledge. As an elementary school teacher told me last year, when assigned a topic, kids proceed like this: go to Google, type keywords, download three relevant sites, cut & paste passages into a new document, add transitions of their own, print it up, and turn it in. The model is information retrieval, not knowledge formation. The material passes from Web to paper without ever lodging in their minds.

[SuperiorSavior]

This hinges on your definiton of specialist knowledge: if something isn't required for your job, it's not specialist. Most people have menial jobs, and only need to know basic reading and comprehension: knowledge will only lead to rebelious thoughts. You ignore the point that changes in spellings and definitions are unstopable as the internet cross-pollinates cultures, and so traditional measures of literacy are going to show an inacurate drop if they don't account for new words and spellings.

[DirkMcQuigly]

"While most people should learn to read.."

Most? Show me ONE person in the US that doesn't need to know HOW to read? This discussion has NOTHING to do with linguistic "progress" as you put it. Rather it has to do with the basic SKILL. The simple problem with the internet is its given millennials the notion that knowledge is compartmentalized and something that doesn't need to be committed to memory. Why do that when we have the world's greatest cheat sheet?

[SuperiorSavior]

My argument was that, if general knowledge really was used every day, people would learn it. As people seemingly are not learning it and are not disadvantaged in any observable way due to that lack of knowledge, I can't concieve of why those things are usefull. Why clutter our brains and waste our time remembering that which we can look up, quickly and easilly? While reading and math are needed(for most people) i don't see why geography and history is needed for the guy who mans the checkout :)

[DirkMcQuigly]

SS, your comment makes no sense. Of course specialized knowledge is for specialists, though not exclusively. And yes, there are disciplines I don't NEED to know to do my job. But cypherphage's point falls apart because I'm NOT talking about specialized knowledge, I'm talking about basic skills, the ability to read, write & comprehend. THESE skills, along with basic understanding of science, civics, history & geography are sorely lacking. General knowledge IS essential BECAUSE we use it everyday.

[SuperiorSavior]

Just because cypherphage chose a bad example doesn't mean his point isn't valid. There must be principles in philosophy, chemisty, art history, psychology, etc. that you wouldn't understand, and whole disciplines you probably don't know (or don't need to know) anything about in your life. Specialist knowledge should be for specialists alone. Society needs to compartmentalise if it is to progress. General knowledge (where iraq is, etc.)is only essential if people learn it in their everyday lives.

[SuperiorSavior]

While most people should learn to read... languages change over time, it's as futile to stand in the way of linguistic progress as it is to try and prevent death. The advent of the internet age, and the true globalisation it has brought, has had an unthinkably large impact on the language in a short ammount of time. We need to keep the language from decending into an uninteligably large set of dialects, but the meaning of literacy and litirature is bound to change dramatically in this period.

[SuperiorSavior]

I didn't know canada was that bad. In the UK we only do a "broad education" in what you'd call middle school (until 10th grade), and there's no  exams before then, it's totally meaningles. When we are actually assessed, we're only assesed on subjects we've chosen for what we want to do (except eng, math and sci). I didn't think it extended into college though, that's just amazing. We only do three subjects in college!

[xlibman]

We have the same prob in Canada (at least... Quebec province). I mean, if you go to college to learn how to create 3D animations, you need to learn who is Socrate, Platon, Machiavel... I mean WTF? In early hi school I think it's a good idea that they introduce us to many subjects in case we get interested, but afterward I could care less what Platon and Aristote did years ago if I just want to do 3D animation, create music or make video games. I just need math, french, english, physic and art.

[DirkMcQuigly]

Yes, I know what cout "does". It inserts a sequence of characters into the output stream as defined in the header file. I assume you're referring to Endianess? It's bit ordering. I've known how to read hex since my first days debugging processors. Page fault errors occur when the OS can't find the data it's looking for in VM. Oh, and a double float refers to numbering occupying two contiguous locations in memory. I used to head up The Graphics Development Group at Intel.

[DirkMcQuigly]

???...Asking a person under 30 if they can find Iraq on a map....is just not something that's going to come up in their life, so there's no reason for them to know that...

Are you fucking kidding? We have HOW MANY troops, [most of which are under 30] in that nation? How much longer are we going to be there? How much money have we spent [US tax dollars]. But we DON'T need to know what it's located? That's GOT to be one of the stupidest remarks I've ever heard.

[SuperiorSavior]

The problem with the american system but not the problem with the british system. We specialise after a broad tutoring in most subjects. Does an artist or a historian or a philosopher need to know chemical bonding? Does a biologist need to know litery criticism? The american system of education is responsible for many of the country's failings sadly, the british system is about to follow it rather than the other way round :( Does a geographer need to know where iraq is even? Though I do XD